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Old 04-02-2019, 07:17 AM
 
3,764 posts, read 3,504,256 times
Reputation: 8938

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Take the test, do the work, and move on to the next company that you are applying to.
If they offer you a job, great.
If not, you're out one day of your time. Big deal.
If they "steal" your work, them's the breaks!

There's a clear line between a simulated test and doing actual work that is of value to the company. You, the applicant, should be smart enough to tell the difference, and if it appears they're exploiting you for free labor, you can either take a chance and do the work, or simply walk away.

Years ago, I read in the WSJ (I think) about a marketing manager who was asked to take 2-3 days and work up a full marketing plan for a company's product campaign and hand it in as part of her hiring evaluation. She obediently did so, and never heard from them again.

Use your discretion here. If you were running a bakery franchise and asked an applicant to demonstrate their abilities to bake and decorate a cake, and they said "I won't do that for free," then would you really want that person on your staff? Not the "go the extra mile" type, more like the "pay me more for less work" type. Obviously, from their standpoint you were getting them to do free work, but if you explain up front that it's a standard test, they can either accept it or move on.
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Old 04-02-2019, 07:25 AM
 
700 posts, read 1,673,580 times
Reputation: 1066
Quote:
Originally Posted by RationalExpectations View Post
I stopped reading as soon as I realized you're quoting Slate, a self-described leftist, progressive, anti-business online rag.

Ordinarily I'd be suspect of the source myself, but do read the article. The writer is a clown:

"Employers, on their end, need to recognize that candidates have lives outside of job searching—jobs and families and other commitments to juggle—and that it’s not reasonable to expect people to do hours of work for free or to turn assignments around within a day or two without advance notice."

Really? That's what the author takes out of this situation? Time wasted rather than outright theft. A gentle, barely chiding tone to an employer who is blatantly attempting to plagiarize? Along with some light gaslighting up further in the article where someone was concerned their work was going to be adapted into current projects the company was working on (read: STOLEN)...and the author states that "it’s possible the employer wasn’t actually planning on using the work and simply did a poor job explaining that the exercise was for assessment purposes only."

Once again, a clear case of "are you going to believe me or your own eyes" - sweet Lord.
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Old 04-02-2019, 09:08 AM
 
Location: Fort Lauderdale, Florida
9,219 posts, read 8,306,163 times
Reputation: 20017
All of our chefs stage (pronounced STAH-jsh) before they get hired which means they work a shift on the line.

If we hire them we pay them for the stage.
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Old 04-02-2019, 10:43 AM
 
16 posts, read 6,680 times
Reputation: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perryview22 View Post
According to this article, "Interviewers are increasingly making absurd demands on applicants’ time..."


As time goes on, hiring practices are only going to get worse. It's hard to imagine what the future in 'human procurement' (talent "acquisition, they call their trade) will look like.


Even now, the combination of these things has made things much more difficult than it was 20 years ago:

* Technology - ATSs and online application processes that enforce responses
* Job boards that give employers increasingly powerful tools to weed the crop of candidates
* Irrational, unjust, entrenched primitive biases that have become best practices
* Virtual networking and sharing intelligence on applicants between recruiters
* Increasing use of personality tests that alienate intelligent, insightful candidates.
(There is an example of one large employer in my city forcing applicants to take their test within the online application under the guise of assessing candidate's values to theirs, but the test is really a risk assessment tool to identify applicants who are more likely to file discrimination complaints)
* Miscellaneous other onerous processes


...But I haven't heard about an emerging practice of giving candidates actual work to do as part of the selection process. So some of them must be getting burned by their presumptions of competence for certain applicants, presumptions of incompetence for "diverse" candidates, over-confidence in interviewing, hiring by referrals, gut checks for "cultural fit", etc. So now this lunacy:

https://slate.com/human-interest/201...ree-labor.html


This makes me think wonder what recruiters will being doing 5 - 10 years from now that would shock us today. I wonder...
OMG! I can't believe someone else has seen this! Yes, the hiring/application process in this country has become a vomit-making "reality show". I've been working in corporate offices for about 20 years, and this is what I've seen:

*Companies don't want SKILL, they want CHEAP. They will hire whoever will work for the cheapest wage they will offer. They would rather hire "out of the gutter" and pay someone $10.00 an hour, rather than hire an experienced professional at $25.00 an hour. And companies absolutely do not care that is costs the company several THOUSAND dollars a month in LOSSES by hiring "out of the gutter". You want to know why your healthcare costs are SO much? I work in a healthcare billing office and aside from maybe 2 or 3 actual experienced professionals, everybody else was hired "out of the gutter". They have no clue what professionalism IS, much less how to work with it, there is absolutely NO ethics at all, and nothing is done right.....EVER! The same accounts are worked on 10 times over in one month because nobody can get them done right the first time. There is NO communication of any kind. It's a "free for all" basically.....do as you please, work if you want, screw it up all day.......nobody cares. WHO gets to pay for all of this? YOU DO! The healthcare insurance CUSTOMER.

*Companies have no values or ethics, much less actual PROFESSIONAL management. 99% of the mangers I've dealt with and had in the corporate offices I've worked over the years, got their jobs because of nepotism. Not skill set, not intelligence, not training, not work ethics..........they got hired because of nepotism. Currently, in the same healthcare office I work at, they just fired the HR manager who has been here for 20 something years (who was actually TRAINED in HR), for some girl who doesn't even have an Administrative certificate, much less any professional training in anything! She went from a 28K a year secretarial position to a 50K a year Corporate HR Manager position! She doesn't even know HOW TO MAIL A LETTER!!!!! I am VERY serious! She came into our department asking how to mail a letter!!! She doesn't even know what an ENVELOPE IS!!!

*The hiring process is screwed up beyond anything that can be comprehended! First and foremost, there is no standardization when it comes to position titles. The term "admin" doesn't mean anything administrative anymore....pretty much ALL jobs are "admin" positions! And this goes for "manager", "sales", "medical", or whatever term you are using to find a position. Nobody can find anything anymore because nothing is categorized or titled to what it should be.

*When I started working out of high school, companies KNEW how to manage their companies. You applied for a position, it didn't take MONTHS and MONTHS and MONTHS of them sitting around with their thumbs up their butts before making a decision. The applicant got a decision within a week or less. Nowadays, these idiots they hire for "managers" have no freeking clue how to do the job. And whats REALLY pathetic is that these are what passes for "college trained professionals".

*Companies waste BILLIONS if not TRILLIONS of dollars a year by sitting around with their thumbs up their butts, stringing applicants along, lying to them, causing massive delays for no reason, and all around just have no clue what the hell they are doing. A REAL, TRUE HR/management professional can post a job ad, reply to responders, get applicants interviewed for the position, and hire someone within two weeks of the job ad hitting the market. I haven't seen this happen since the mid 1990's.

*Talent, skill, intellect, knowledge, organization, and aptitude mean absolutely NOTHING to companies anymore. They just want CHEAP LABOR, period. I've been stuck at the same wage for over 10 years now because companies are so corrupt and cheap now. And aside from that, these "blanket" raises companies give now are nothing more than the company spitting in the face of the employees. Doesn't matter if you are a hard worker or a clock-rider........EVERYBODY GETS THE SAME RAISE! Hard work, skills, and ethics account for NOTHING anymore.


I could go on all day, but I have to get back to my dead end job now...........
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Old 04-02-2019, 11:48 AM
 
101 posts, read 29,326 times
Reputation: 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by chesterv View Post
OMG! I can't believe someone else has seen this! Yes, the hiring/application process in this country has become a vomit-making "reality show". I've been working in corporate offices for about 20 years, and this is what I've seen:

*Companies don't want SKILL, they want CHEAP. They will hire whoever will work for the cheapest wage they will offer. They would rather hire "out of the gutter" and pay someone $10.00 an hour, rather than hire an experienced professional at $25.00 an hour. And companies absolutely do not care that is costs the company several THOUSAND dollars a month in LOSSES by hiring "out of the gutter". You want to know why your healthcare costs are SO much? I work in a healthcare billing office and aside from maybe 2 or 3 actual experienced professionals, everybody else was hired "out of the gutter". They have no clue what professionalism IS, much less how to work with it, there is absolutely NO ethics at all, and nothing is done right.....EVER! The same accounts are worked on 10 times over in one month because nobody can get them done right the first time. There is NO communication of any kind. It's a "free for all" basically.....do as you please, work if you want, screw it up all day.......nobody cares. WHO gets to pay for all of this? YOU DO! The healthcare insurance CUSTOMER.

*Companies have no values or ethics, much less actual PROFESSIONAL management. 99% of the mangers I've dealt with and had in the corporate offices I've worked over the years, got their jobs because of nepotism. Not skill set, not intelligence, not training, not work ethics..........they got hired because of nepotism. Currently, in the same healthcare office I work at, they just fired the HR manager who has been here for 20 something years (who was actually TRAINED in HR), for some girl who doesn't even have an Administrative certificate, much less any professional training in anything! She went from a 28K a year secretarial position to a 50K a year Corporate HR Manager position! She doesn't even know HOW TO MAIL A LETTER!!!!! I am VERY serious! She came into our department asking how to mail a letter!!! She doesn't even know what an ENVELOPE IS!!!

*The hiring process is screwed up beyond anything that can be comprehended! First and foremost, there is no standardization when it comes to position titles. The term "admin" doesn't mean anything administrative anymore....pretty much ALL jobs are "admin" positions! And this goes for "manager", "sales", "medical", or whatever term you are using to find a position. Nobody can find anything anymore because nothing is categorized or titled to what it should be.

*When I started working out of high school, companies KNEW how to manage their companies. You applied for a position, it didn't take MONTHS and MONTHS and MONTHS of them sitting around with their thumbs up their butts before making a decision. The applicant got a decision within a week or less. Nowadays, these idiots they hire for "managers" have no freeking clue how to do the job. And whats REALLY pathetic is that these are what passes for "college trained professionals".

*Companies waste BILLIONS if not TRILLIONS of dollars a year by sitting around with their thumbs up their butts, stringing applicants along, lying to them, causing massive delays for no reason, and all around just have no clue what the hell they are doing. A REAL, TRUE HR/management professional can post a job ad, reply to responders, get applicants interviewed for the position, and hire someone within two weeks of the job ad hitting the market. I haven't seen this happen since the mid 1990's.

*Talent, skill, intellect, knowledge, organization, and aptitude mean absolutely NOTHING to companies anymore. They just want CHEAP LABOR, period. I've been stuck at the same wage for over 10 years now because companies are so corrupt and cheap now. And aside from that, these "blanket" raises companies give now are nothing more than the company spitting in the face of the employees. Doesn't matter if you are a hard worker or a clock-rider........EVERYBODY GETS THE SAME RAISE! Hard work, skills, and ethics account for NOTHING anymore.


I could go on all day, but I have to get back to my dead end job now...........

Excellent description of what's going on in the workplace today....sadly I've seen and experienced this as well.
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Old 04-02-2019, 01:31 PM
 
Location: Proxima Centauri
4,824 posts, read 1,989,023 times
Reputation: 5267
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lekrii View Post
Some ARE just trying to get free work out of people, but others are not. Top consulting firms (Deloitte, McKinsey, Bain, etc.) often have case competitions where they ask applicants to 'work' to prove what they can do. Sometimes the job is competitive enough it's worth the extra effort to prove you deserve it.

It depends on a person's goals. You'd spend a few hours researching a company, the backgrounds of the people interviewing you, etc. anyway before actually setting foot in the door for your first interview. You should know after that if they are the kind of company who would give a test to see if you know what you're talking about, or if they are just trying to take advantage of you.

It seems to me that conservatives are always complaining about people getting free stuff. I wonder what they would say about this. Then again, they are not being conditioned to complain about corporations getting free stuff.


Union Yes!
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Old 04-02-2019, 01:48 PM
 
Location: Proxima Centauri
4,824 posts, read 1,989,023 times
Reputation: 5267
Quote:
Originally Posted by chesterv View Post
OMG! I can't believe someone else has seen this! Yes, the hiring/application process in this country has become a vomit-making "reality show". I've been working in corporate offices for about 20 years, and this is what I've seen:

*Companies don't want SKILL, they want CHEAP. They will hire whoever will work for the cheapest wage they will offer. They would rather hire "out of the gutter" and pay someone $10.00 an hour, rather than hire an experienced professional at $25.00 an hour. And companies absolutely do not care that is costs the company several THOUSAND dollars a month in LOSSES by hiring "out of the gutter". You want to know why your healthcare costs are SO much? I work in a healthcare billing office and aside from maybe 2 or 3 actual experienced professionals, everybody else was hired "out of the gutter". They have no clue what professionalism IS, much less how to work with it, there is absolutely NO ethics at all, and nothing is done right.....EVER! The same accounts are worked on 10 times over in one month because nobody can get them done right the first time. There is NO communication of any kind. It's a "free for all" basically.....do as you please, work if you want, screw it up all day.......nobody cares. WHO gets to pay for all of this? YOU DO! The healthcare insurance CUSTOMER.

Now that we got the politicians to limit punitive damages to nothing we can test our new 737 software in production.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chesterv View Post
*Companies have no values or ethics, much less actual PROFESSIONAL management. 99% of the mangers I've dealt with and had in the corporate offices I've worked over the years, got their jobs because of nepotism. Not skill set, not intelligence, not training, not work ethics..........they got hired because of nepotism. Currently, in the same healthcare office I work at, they just fired the HR manager who has been here for 20 something years (who was actually TRAINED in HR), for some girl who doesn't even have an Administrative certificate, much less any professional training in anything! She went from a 28K a year secretarial position to a 50K a year Corporate HR Manager position! She doesn't even know HOW TO MAIL A LETTER!!!!! I am VERY serious! She came into our department asking how to mail a letter!!! She doesn't even know what an ENVELOPE IS!!!

*The hiring process is screwed up beyond anything that can be comprehended! First and foremost, there is no standardization when it comes to position titles. The term "admin" doesn't mean anything administrative anymore....pretty much ALL jobs are "admin" positions! And this goes for "manager", "sales", "medical", or whatever term you are using to find a position. Nobody can find anything anymore because nothing is categorized or titled to what it should be.

Everybody is an administrator because they don't need to pay administrators OT above 35K.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chesterv View Post
*When I started working out of high school, companies KNEW how to manage their companies. You applied for a position, it didn't take MONTHS and MONTHS and MONTHS of them sitting around with their thumbs up their butts before making a decision. The applicant got a decision within a week or less. Nowadays, these idiots they hire for "managers" have no freeking clue how to do the job. And whats REALLY pathetic is that these are what passes for "college trained professionals".

*Companies waste BILLIONS if not TRILLIONS of dollars a year by sitting around with their thumbs up their butts, stringing applicants along, lying to them, causing massive delays for no reason, and all around just have no clue what the hell they are doing. A REAL, TRUE HR/management professional can post a job ad, reply to responders, get applicants interviewed for the position, and hire someone within two weeks of the job ad hitting the market. I haven't seen this happen since the mid 1990's.

*Talent, skill, intellect, knowledge, organization, and aptitude mean absolutely NOTHING to companies anymore. They just want CHEAP LABOR, period. I've been stuck at the same wage for over 10 years now because companies are so corrupt and cheap now. And aside from that, these "blanket" raises companies give now are nothing more than the company spitting in the face of the employees. Doesn't matter if you are a hard worker or a clock-rider........EVERYBODY GETS THE SAME RAISE! Hard work, skills, and ethics account for NOTHING anymore.


I could go on all day, but I have to get back to my dead end job now...........

I love to read this stuff. I'm really not alone.

Last edited by Tonyafd; 04-02-2019 at 02:07 PM..
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Old 04-02-2019, 04:33 PM
 
Location: South Australia
374 posts, read 95,681 times
Reputation: 867
This the position in Australia today:

"Unpaid work experience, job placements and internships that are not vocational placements will be unlawful if the person is in an employment relationship with the business or organisation they are doing the work for. People in employment relationships are employees of a business and entitled to:

a minimum wage
the National Employment Standards
the terms of any applicable award or registered agreement.

To work out whether or not a person is an employee each case must be considered on its own facts. It is a matter of working out whether the arrangement involves the creation of an employment contract. That contract does not have to be in writing; it can be a purely verbal agreement. "

https://www.fairwork.gov.au/pay/unpa...nd-internships


Having said that, about 10 years ago, I was conned by a market research company where I had applied for a job. They had me work a week end doing door-to-door market research. I was not a paid, because of some internal policy they had. I did not continue working for them. I should have reported them .I was clearly their employe because they had me fill out tax forms.

At 18, I badly needed a job I accepted. Employer told me on the first day that he didn't pay over time, that he paid annual bonuses, I said I understand, and. YOU need to understand that I get paid for any over time. He didn't sack me. I did no overtime. He also tried the 'come in half an hour early, finish half an hour later" nonsense. I simply refused.
I stayed there only until I could find a better job---joined the Civil Service..
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Old 04-02-2019, 04:57 PM
 
Location: Proxima Centauri
4,824 posts, read 1,989,023 times
Reputation: 5267
Quote:
Originally Posted by c charlie View Post
This the position in Australia today:

"Unpaid work experience, job placements and internships that are not vocational placements will be unlawful if the person is in an employment relationship with the business or organisation they are doing the work for. People in employment relationships are employees of a business and entitled to:

a minimum wage
the National Employment Standards
the terms of any applicable award or registered agreement.

To work out whether or not a person is an employee each case must be considered on its own facts. It is a matter of working out whether the arrangement involves the creation of an employment contract. That contract does not have to be in writing; it can be a purely verbal agreement. "

https://www.fairwork.gov.au/pay/unpa...nd-internships


Having said that, about 10 years ago, I was conned by a market research company where I had applied for a job. They had me work a week end doing door-to-door market research. I was not a paid, because of some internal policy they had. I did not continue working for them. I should have reported them .I was clearly their employe because they had me fill out tax forms.

At 18, I badly needed a job I accepted. Employer told me on the first day that he didn't pay over time, that he paid annual bonuses, I said I understand, and. YOU need to understand that I get paid for any over time. He didn't sack me. I did no overtime. He also tried the 'come in half an hour early, finish half an hour later" nonsense. I simply refused.
I stayed there only until I could find a better job---joined the Civil Service..

Well done. Corporations are the same all over the world. They are willing to try anything that they can get away with and a lot of stuff that they can't. Believe me, if civil service is anything like it is in the states, you will have an easier life, more vacation and a good pension.
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Old 04-03-2019, 01:35 AM
 
Location: America's Expensive Toilet
1,333 posts, read 827,851 times
Reputation: 2928
This has been going on in my field for a loooong time. Always the 'test' to prove you're competent at the job... because for some reason the interview and portfolio review were not enough.
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