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Old 04-06-2019, 11:29 AM
 
11,192 posts, read 8,585,083 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rummage View Post
Not that I'm aware of. It isn't clear if this is his failure to make them happy or just the circumstances of the market place and that they know he is trapped by tenure.
No one is trapped by tenure. This person has free will and can move about as he wishes. Maintaining tenure at this one particular school is a choice. Professors change schools. It's not unheard of.
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Old 04-06-2019, 11:38 AM
 
Location: Denver CO
21,219 posts, read 11,850,969 times
Reputation: 32266
I find it surprising that there are so many examples in this thread of professors not getting raises when the American Association of University Professors survey says average salaries have increased 3%. Yes, I realize that an average doesn't apply to everyone but still, it seems odd that there are all these examples of getting 0 year after year when the average keeps going up

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/...ssion-and-more
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Old 04-06-2019, 12:34 PM
 
Location: Western Washington
9,029 posts, read 8,451,682 times
Reputation: 15646
Quote:
Originally Posted by emm74 View Post
I find it surprising that there are so many examples in this thread of professors not getting raises when the American Association of University Professors survey says average salaries have increased 3%. Yes, I realize that an average doesn't apply to everyone but still, it seems odd that there are all these examples of getting 0 year after year when the average keeps going up

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/...ssion-and-more
A few examples of faculty not getting raisesis not statistically significant. I know dozens of faculty who have gotten raises year after year. Itís pretty boring to write about the math professor I know and had lunch with last week, she was hired 5 years ago and has gotten a raise every year since. I have a friend who is a museum curator at an academic museum, who has gotten raises consistently. One of my former student workers landed a faculty job at a UC school a couple of years ago, and I am pretty sure she has received annual raises.

I could go on.
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Old 04-06-2019, 05:56 PM
 
3,576 posts, read 3,817,529 times
Reputation: 3333
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlygal View Post
No one is trapped by tenure. This person has free will and can move about as he wishes. Maintaining tenure at this one particular school is a choice. Professors change schools. It's not unheard of.
It is very hard to do.
It isn't unheard of- but it's particularly uncommon in teaching & academia.

This is a product of how the system is set up.


Teaching and academics were poised as lifetime positions.
After 10 years or so while earning a seat with job security and decent pay- some transferring positions would reset to zero. This isn't negotiable and prohibits job sniping or job abandonment.

Now that we see more mobility in the workplace for a variety of factors- this system isn't as compatible.


Someone coming in with senior management experience in the private sector would likely NEVER EVER take a job as low level in a new company with no chance of ever catching up in salary- why would we expect the same of government workers?
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Old 04-06-2019, 08:03 PM
 
Location: "Silicon Valley" (part of San Francisco Bay Area, California, USA)
4,189 posts, read 2,952,065 times
Reputation: 2037
Quote:
Originally Posted by WithDisp View Post
Someone coming in with senior management experience in the private sector would likely NEVER EVER take a job as low level in a new company with no chance of ever catching up in salary- why would we expect the same of government workers?
Well, when you work for the government you're supposed to be doing it out of patriotism, to serve your country. You're not supposed to be trying to get a high salary. When I was in the Navy I always hated the minority who claimed they were there "for the money". For one, they don't pay us much, so that's a stupid decision, and two, you're supposed to be there for patriotism. Of course I was upper middle class when I joined. My dad made a lot of money when I was growing up here in Silicon Valley (he was an engineer, and later middle manager, at various magnetic storage companies) and was paying for college when I left to join the Navy.

On submarines, to be a Line Officer -- an Ensign (in the Army a Lieutenant, paygrade O-1) who will eventually be assigned as the Captain of a submarine when they are more senior in rank and experience -- requires one year of calculus and one year of physics using calculus. So on my first boat, there was an officer with a BS in physics in Stanford and another with a BS in Nuclear Engineering from MIT. These men could have taken jobs here in Silicon Valley for $100k or $150k but instead took a job as an Ensign in the United States Navy on nuclear submarines for far, far less pay. They did it because they loved their country and wanted to serve their country. Decades ago, military service was expected of those who went to elite universities, but these days many are taught in college to hate their country.

A nuclear submarine officer who just joined the Navy as is an Ensign, paygrade O-1, will make $3188/month in 2019. In other words about $38k/year.

https://www.dfas.mil/militarymembers...ic-Pay/CO.html

Compared to making $100k/year in Silicon Valley. They do get free housing when the submarine is in port. I'm not sure if their meals are actually free; I read that officers pay for their meals out of their salary. Since I was enlisted, I'm not sure if that's true. But it's funny that teachers want to protest when they make more than someone who is risking their life hundreds of feet underwater on a nuclear powered submarine.

Like John F Kennedy, former Navy officer and fellow center-left Democrat, said, "ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxa4HDgfWFs
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Old 04-06-2019, 10:36 PM
 
2,487 posts, read 711,889 times
Reputation: 3477
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutrino78x View Post
These men could have taken jobs here in Silicon Valley for $100k or $150k but instead took a job as an Ensign in the United States Navy on nuclear submarines for far, far less pay.

A nuclear submarine officer who just joined the Navy as is an Ensign, paygrade O-1, will make $3188/month in 2019. In other words about $38k/year.
Silicon Valley is ridiculously expensive. By the time they take their $100K job, pay rent and ridiculous cost of living, they're having pennies in their bank account. And there's massive age discrimination there, one's career is over at age 35, unless they become a founder.

An ensign making $38K a year gets free housing, free healthcare, free food - they're banking almost all of their paycheck. If they work hard, they get promotions and better roles. After 20 years they get a nice pension. Silicon Valley doesn't do pensions. Silicon Valley can't compete with this.

So they're waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better off even though their salary is lower.

Stop looking at the top line (salary), look at the bottom line (salary minus cost of living).
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Old 04-06-2019, 11:21 PM
 
1,453 posts, read 606,619 times
Reputation: 1324
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobsell View Post
Silicon Valley is ridiculously expensive. By the time they take their $100K job, pay rent and ridiculous cost of living, they're having pennies in their bank account.
Most people who flock to silicon valley don't go there for the $100k administrative jobs. They go there for the $300k tech jobs...
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Old 04-07-2019, 12:31 AM
 
1,580 posts, read 410,301 times
Reputation: 2925
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobsell View Post
Silicon Valley is ridiculously expensive. By the time they take their $100K job, pay rent and ridiculous cost of living, they're having pennies in their bank account. And there's massive age discrimination there, one's career is over at age 35, unless they become a founder.

An ensign making $38K a year gets free housing, free healthcare, free food - they're banking almost all of their paycheck. If they work hard, they get promotions and better roles. After 20 years they get a nice pension. Silicon Valley doesn't do pensions. Silicon Valley can't compete with this.

So they're waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better off even though their salary is lower.

Stop looking at the top line (salary), look at the bottom line (salary minus cost of living).
You should learn how to use a spreadsheet and put in real numbers before forming a conclusion because you aren't comparing real numbers here. Because you are way off entirely. Someone making over $200K+ a year has a matching (6-10% of gross pay) 401(k) from the employer which is free money and stock grants which is also free money for starters. No way is someone making $38K a year even if they had zero expenses and taking it to the extremely paid no tax on any of it is better off than someone earning a high paying job in Silicon Valley. Having a free place to live also doesn't get the mortgage interest tax deduction or building equity in real estate. As for that pension, that isn't an open ended magic Black Amex card, it has a real number and it can't complete with the portfolio of someone having worked in Silicon Valley in a hiring paying job over all those years. People hear the word pension and think it is some sort of magic thing.
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Old 04-07-2019, 12:35 AM
 
1,453 posts, read 606,619 times
Reputation: 1324
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobsell View Post
Silicon Valley doesn't do pensions.
Even better than pensions, they get a 401k with match (which in itself is amazing) AND stocks... often valued at 50% to 100% of their salary.
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Old 04-07-2019, 07:54 AM
 
6,883 posts, read 3,743,330 times
Reputation: 18152
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutrino78x View Post
Well, when you work for the government you're supposed to be doing it out of patriotism, to serve your country. You're not supposed to be trying to get a high salary. When I was in the Navy I always hated the minority who claimed they were there "for the money". For one, they don't pay us much, so that's a stupid decision, and two, you're supposed to be there for patriotism. Of course I was upper middle class when I joined. My dad made a lot of money when I was growing up here in Silicon Valley (he was an engineer, and later middle manager, at various magnetic storage companies) and was paying for college when I left to join the Navy.

On submarines, to be a Line Officer -- an Ensign (in the Army a Lieutenant, paygrade O-1) who will eventually be assigned as the Captain of a submarine when they are more senior in rank and experience -- requires one year of calculus and one year of physics using calculus. So on my first boat, there was an officer with a BS in physics in Stanford and another with a BS in Nuclear Engineering from MIT. These men could have taken jobs here in Silicon Valley for $100k or $150k but instead took a job as an Ensign in the United States Navy on nuclear submarines for far, far less pay. They did it because they loved their country and wanted to serve their country. Decades ago, military service was expected of those who went to elite universities, but these days many are taught in college to hate their country.

A nuclear submarine officer who just joined the Navy as is an Ensign, paygrade O-1, will make $3188/month in 2019. In other words about $38k/year.

https://www.dfas.mil/militarymembers...ic-Pay/CO.html

Compared to making $100k/year in Silicon Valley. They do get free housing when the submarine is in port. I'm not sure if their meals are actually free; I read that officers pay for their meals out of their salary. Since I was enlisted, I'm not sure if that's true. But it's funny that teachers want to protest when they make more than someone who is risking their life hundreds of feet underwater on a nuclear powered submarine.

Like John F Kennedy, former Navy officer and fellow center-left Democrat, said, "ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxa4HDgfWFs
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobsell View Post
Silicon Valley is ridiculously expensive. By the time they take their $100K job, pay rent and ridiculous cost of living, they're having pennies in their bank account. And there's massive age discrimination there, one's career is over at age 35, unless they become a founder.

An ensign making $38K a year gets free housing, free healthcare, free food - they're banking almost all of their paycheck. If they work hard, they get promotions and better roles. After 20 years they get a nice pension. Silicon Valley doesn't do pensions. Silicon Valley can't compete with this.

So they're waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better off even though their salary is lower.

Stop looking at the top line (salary), look at the bottom line (salary minus cost of living).
Lets look at the real numbers:
a. O1 Base pay, fresh out of school: 3188
b. BAS (food): 254
c. BAH (housing, w/o dependents, Bremerton): 1707
Total: 5149 or $61,788 per year.
and a submarine O1 receives another $2760 per year when assigned to sub duty. Not $100K per year, but a lot more than $38K too, so Neutrino, you way underestimated military pay.

In contrast a civil service employee, just out of college, same degree, gets $42,053.
I served a military career, including being stationed in Silicon Valley, so I know what military pay and benefits are and what the cost of living in Silicon Valley is so Bobsell, you are just flat wrong on Silicon Valley pay vs military/government pay and benefits. My view on the military pay scale is enlisted and CGOs are underpaid; Lt Cols and Cols are overpaid; and General Officers are significantly underpaid compared to their equivalent skills and responsibility.

None of which actually addresses Withdisp's point that gov benefits/retirement have historically been very difficult to transfer if you change jobs. Often you reset to zero and start the climb again. It was the government's way of keeping employees in place. Might be hard to fire you with tenure, but it was equally hard to quit. Often referred to by the term "golden handcuffs." Just like that 20 year military retirement so many are jealous of. Well that retirement was all or nothing. Less that 20 years and you lost all those years of working and started over.

So in counter to Neutrino's point about government work being patriotism, at some point you still have to put food on the table and a roof over your kid's heads. Public service isn't a vow of poverty, though many in the public think it should be. I can't hire and retain new young engineers because industry is offering them $20K more than I can, plus better 401K matching and stock options. If you want quality government employees, pay has to be competitive with the market.
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