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Old 04-20-2019, 02:34 PM
 
1,722 posts, read 566,844 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
Which gets into a huge loop of self-cancelling nonsense. (Not that I'm disagreeing.) So they need someone... but if they don't already know someone, they can't search for someone they don't know. So they're searching for someone they already know/have in hand, but if someone tries to be known, they're ignored because no one knows them.

Sounds like an early 19th century English drawing-room farce.


Right, but they ignore the applicants unless it's already someone they know. ("Tea, Parson Everleigh? One lump or two?")


As someone who relocated to a completely new area, "networking" is not one of my stronger tools. I don't think that I'm being unreasonable that some small percentage of applications, given that I am an extremely highly qualified candidate who doesn't happen to know Joe down in Accounting, would result in at least a phone inquiry or followup. Especially over more than a year.

(I have no real illusions about why I rarely get called; I cannot disguise that I am twice the age of most candidates. "Networking" here is the ca-30 crowd down in the dense WeWork/workloft zone, scheduled for the convenience of those who live-work there and all but inaccessible in the immediate after-work hour.)
Anyone can network. Join a cooking class, join an industry organization. Talk to neighbors. Just talk to people.

Everyone likes to talk about themselves, and most people like to talk about what they do. Ask anyone you find interesting if you can grab coffee with them and learn about what they do. 80% of people will agree, even if they hardly know you. Put a list of 10 new people per month together and get a plan around your networking.

Networking is a skill like any other. Nearly no one has a network without an active plan to create it. I'm an extremely introverted person. I hired a career coach who started by giving me homework (ie, over the next week you need to create a list of 10 companies you want to work for, and come up with one person you'd like to talk to who works for those companies). Put structured plans on who to talk to together. That's networking. Practice it long enough, and you get better at it.
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Old 04-20-2019, 02:40 PM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
8,717 posts, read 3,116,388 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lekrii View Post
Anyone can network. Join a cooking class, join an industry organization. Talk to neighbors. Just talk to people.
And my city is overflowing with networking groups, too.

That doesn't really address any of the issues, general or my own, and I suspect it's a bit vague and hand-wavy for a lot of the people in these discussions.

In the sense you mean it, it does almost zero good to "network" with people who are not well-connected in your field or its realm. I "network" with lots of people in any given week; I can't imagine how any of them would ever lead to a job connection except through Powerball odds. Oh, I might get a great cookie recipe or meet a new dog, but it's pretty unlikely that my housewife neighbor is going to clap her face and go, "Why yes, my husband's IT vendor's catering service knows a marketing firm looking for a lead designer!"

"Networking" among millennials who are already swimming in the sea is a closed-loop system that works incredibly well... for them. That such crowds are unable to envision any other situation or scenario is... somewhere between integral and foundational.

More tea?
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Old 04-20-2019, 03:48 PM
 
1,722 posts, read 566,844 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
And my city is overflowing with networking groups, too.

That doesn't really address any of the issues, general or my own, and I suspect it's a bit vague and hand-wavy for a lot of the people in these discussions.

In the sense you mean it, it does almost zero good to "network" with people who are not well-connected in your field or its realm. I "network" with lots of people in any given week; I can't imagine how any of them would ever lead to a job connection except through Powerball odds. Oh, I might get a great cookie recipe or meet a new dog, but it's pretty unlikely that my housewife neighbor is going to clap her face and go, "Why yes, my husband's IT vendor's catering service knows a marketing firm looking for a lead designer!"

"Networking" among millennials who are already swimming in the sea is a closed-loop system that works incredibly well... for them. That such crowds are unable to envision any other situation or scenario is... somewhere between integral and foundational.

More tea?
I'm not talking about 'networking groups'. I'm talking about getting to know people, and asking them about their jobs.

Yes, getting to know a random person who is not a hiring manager can lead to a job. I got a job once because a guy I got to know (an analyst, no one special) had a brother working at a company I applied to. The guy I know wrote me a letter of recommendation that his brother gave to the hiring manager. That alone put me ahead of anyone applying blindly online. Yes, it's somewhat of a game of chance. It might take me talking to 70 people to find one who thinks I know what I'm talking about AND who knows someone who is hiring. That's why you put structure around networking. If I have a written plan to connect with 10 people per week, assuming 1/70 might work out, I will hit those 70 people in less than two months. It takes work, but sitting around complaining about networking doesn't help build connections.

I'm not a millennial, so I can't respond to your last sentence, you'll have to forgive me for being out of the loop on what works for that age group.
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Old 04-20-2019, 04:21 PM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
8,717 posts, read 3,116,388 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lekrii View Post
I'm not talking about 'networking groups'. I'm talking about getting to know people, and asking them about their jobs.
I referenced both.

Do you not see the contradiction? If you know lots of people in various jobs, you are inherently "networking" and it neither needs explanation nor a fancy term.

If you don't know lots of people in professional/career ways, you can't really network, can you?

"Networking" is a nearly meaningless buzzword that reduces to "hang around with all the people you work with and around so that you're up on the water-cooler chat and job buzz." If you don't work around other people in your field and region, you can't do it.

Millennial or not, there's a baffling circular logic about this stuff that some people just can't grasp. "Networking is easy... I hang out all day with people doing it. You should, too."

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Old 04-20-2019, 04:31 PM
 
Location: southern california
55,709 posts, read 74,719,468 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
Some of it is just endless fishing for perfect hires. Costs little to keep looking; no motivation to hire anything but some idealized candidate. Keeps HR busy and productive.
Quietude is the post of the week ding ding ding
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Old 04-20-2019, 07:35 PM
 
12,710 posts, read 10,004,742 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandsthetime View Post
True. I've seen jobs re-posted three times in five months. Are a lot of places just hiring the wrong people who eventually quit?
Or maybe they interview a bunch of people each time and then give offers with insultingly low pay, and wait for the candidates to reject them, then repeat the cycle.
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Old 04-20-2019, 08:34 PM
 
1,722 posts, read 566,844 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
I referenced both.

Do you not see the contradiction? If you know lots of people in various jobs, you are inherently "networking" and it neither needs explanation nor a fancy term.

If you don't know lots of people in professional/career ways, you can't really network, can you?

"Networking" is a nearly meaningless buzzword that reduces to "hang around with all the people you work with and around so that you're up on the water-cooler chat and job buzz." If you don't work around other people in your field and region, you can't do it.

Millennial or not, there's a baffling circular logic about this stuff that some people just can't grasp. "Networking is easy... I hang out all day with people doing it. You should, too."

There is no contradiction, unless you're saying it's impossible to meet new people, which again, is why I have said multiple times that networking takes work, and should be planned. Networking is not only meeting people in 'professional/career' ways. Effective networking is not done with ANY existing co-workers.

I've addressed ways to do this. I also never said networking is easy. I said it takes work. I hate networking. It doesn't come naturally to me, I'm happier not doing it. When job hunting, I put a written plan together on networking as part of a job search. It's effective. It'd be foolish not to put effort into it when you want a new job. Please respond to the entire content of what I said, instead of selectively quoting me.

Last edited by Lekrii; 04-20-2019 at 08:55 PM..
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Old 04-21-2019, 09:25 AM
 
9,769 posts, read 4,591,667 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pvande55 View Post
I read that some firms are hiring even though they have no work for the new hire, just so they have a "bullpen" for when the work comes.

Posting job positions and conducting interviews is not the same thing as "hiring". Which one do you really mean? And where exactly did you read this?
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Old 04-21-2019, 01:58 PM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
8,717 posts, read 3,116,388 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lekrii View Post
There is no contradiction, unless you're saying it's impossible to meet new people, which again, is why I have said multiple times that networking takes work, and should be planned. Networking is not only meeting people in 'professional/career' ways. Effective networking is not done with ANY existing co-workers.
I'm willing to just say we're talking about slightly different things, but I still see your view as being limited to "meeting lots of new [usefully connected and relevant] people" - which remains a bit circular and serving those for whom this situation already exists.

I suppose I could know 50 of my neighbors and engage them enough for them to know what I do and that I'm generally fishing for new opportunities, and Bob from down the street might tip me to apply here or there. But in general, the bulk of people you know don't have anything to do with job, career, employment or anything of the kind. It's ONLY people who are connected to you through career or employment that are in any way likely to provide this kind of connection and Old Boy Network... and other than hanging out in different after-work bars and groups with a work/career focus, you aren't likely to meet anyone who's ever going to do you any good.

Yes, "networking" as in spending a large part of your time hanging with co-workers (in the largest sense) is useful. "Networking" as in playing social butterfly across the life spectrum almost certainly isn't. And if you're inside a "networking" environment, great... but if you're not, there's next to no way to get into one.

It works for those for whom it works... too bad about the rest of us, who lack a deep web of connection from which to start.
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Old 04-21-2019, 01:59 PM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
8,717 posts, read 3,116,388 times
Reputation: 13135
Quote:
Originally Posted by oceangaia View Post
Posting job positions and conducting interviews is not the same thing as "hiring".
I've never seen anyone split an RCH before. Congrats.
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