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Old 04-27-2019, 11:29 AM
 
Location: NYC
12,892 posts, read 8,730,792 times
Reputation: 14140

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Quote:
Originally Posted by charlygal View Post
Is this a joke post?

If anything, the opposite is true. It is much easier to automate coding work than it is to automate the FULL job of a PM. Heck, we already have low code development using platforms like Pega.

I don't see any automation built for handling the people, process, or regulatory work done by PMs.
This is not a joke, I've worked for over 8 clients and they do not have full time PMs. They're all paying well and my new client who is as large many other tech titans also do not have full time PMs for IT and excepts the managers to fill these shoes. Perhaps your neck of the woods things don't get much done without PMs expecting meetings after meetings.

Here at NYC, you'll find that having a PM only exists at large corp and government jobs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobsell View Post
I attempted to make a career change into project management.

After getting a new certificate and certification, I was told I could not get a job as a project manager. 70% of PM jobs require 5-7 years experience (defined as you have the job title of project manager) - and 30% require more than 7 years.

But the're fine to whine about a "talent shortage" that they created by using requirements that cannot be filled in reality.
This is exactly the problem, why most places do not hire PMs. These duties are often being given to dept managers or leads who are often being pushed to take PM courses because they are better suited to project manage/lead their area of expertise. I was an IT manager for 2 years and I was expected to take PM courses and use Microsoft Project. Because PMs are a dead end job usually in NYC mid-level companies who expects PMs to not only run projects but lead and understand them. The only time a true PM was needed is to help implement a new PM system. We had a guy from mid-west who is a PM consultant for major manufacturing brands come on site to help us implement a PM system that will be adopted by all of the depts.
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Old 04-27-2019, 01:51 PM
 
32,403 posts, read 16,605,334 times
Reputation: 17433
Good PMs are jewels beyond price. And, like jewels, they're damn rare.

Mediocre PMs are best employed as glorified secretaries who can assemble and format project information and put it in nice Powerpoints to take to management. The senior contributors will run what needs to be run.

Bad PMs tend to think they're actually managers or contributors, when they are neither. They should be treated like mushrooms: keep them in the dark and feed them horse manure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by charlygal View Post
If the whip didn't need to be cracked, the PM wouldn't need to crack it.
Shenanigans. If you've never encountered people who subscribe to the "power unused is no power at all" philosophy, you've been very lucky.
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Old 04-27-2019, 02:56 PM
 
10,772 posts, read 13,666,847 times
Reputation: 6266
My company has spent millions on these people when what we really needed were more people to actually DO things, not have more people looking over the shoulders of those who do.
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Old 04-27-2019, 04:21 PM
 
3,754 posts, read 2,120,792 times
Reputation: 10254
Quote:
Originally Posted by dman72 View Post
My company has spent millions on these people when what we really needed were more people to actually DO things, not have more people looking over the shoulders of those who do.
Exactly. Theres too many armchair quarterbacks in most places now that do nothing but sit on their computers, headsets, spreading their opinions around and very littler "doers" How many pointless layers upon layers of management does a place need? Thats like having an army full of nothing but officers and no enlisted.

Ive been in your shoes and Im willing to bet very little if anything actually improved with the countless layers of middle, upper, project management etc.
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Old 04-27-2019, 06:13 PM
 
Location: Proxima Centauri
4,795 posts, read 1,980,636 times
Reputation: 5225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serious Conversation View Post
I work in IT, and I'm on several large, concurrent projects where we have PMs.

Each one of them, down to a person, acts like they're the boss of the analysts and engineers actually doing the work. I received a request from one of them this morning to create user accounts. My team doesn't handle that, and I was never informed of what type of accounts they needed. I get a nastygram back that "I'll take this to someone else if I need to," CCing other employees on my team who are no longer on the project. After all that, the vendor PM still didn't provide all the information required to create the accounts.

I was placed on a new project last week with a brand new PM who has never done this type of work before. He's a nice guy, but clearly in over his head and has no IT background. He's useless.

I have another project where the PM has been out sick for weeks/months and follows up on every single minor issue. She wants to another the status of minor support cases and other super granular data. She's not around enough to help, and being so granular is causing us to lose focus on the bigger picture.

Anyone else find these people to be damn near useless?

People who supervise IT people with no IT experience are dangerous. They establish deadlines with no thought as to how much coding is involved. Have any of you been asked how long do you think that this will take ten minutes after they present you with a project? Proper requirement analysis takes a couple of hours even it it is a single program being written.
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Old 04-27-2019, 06:53 PM
 
11,119 posts, read 8,527,266 times
Reputation: 28065
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonyafd View Post
People who supervise IT people with no IT experience are dangerous. They establish deadlines with no thought as to how much coding is involved. Have any of you been asked how long do you think that this will take ten minutes after they present you with a project? Proper requirement analysis takes a couple of hours even it it is a single program being written.
That's not how that works. I don't supervise IT people. I manage the project. We are Agile. We do story sizing where THE DEVELOPERS THEMSELVES tell us how long they believe a story will take. Essentially, they set their own schedule and timeline. Stories are also groomed with the developers and product owners. There is room to adjust and move stories to later sprints, etc.

It's amazing how folks still can't understand that there is more to a project than the tech.
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Old 04-27-2019, 07:33 PM
 
2,144 posts, read 527,667 times
Reputation: 3741
Quote:
Originally Posted by turf3 View Post
If you talk to experienced engineers, one of the first things they tell you they HATE is when a project runs late, the senior management's invariable response is "let's have daily emergency status meetings that take three hours out of the heart of the work day, until the schedule delay is made up".
LOL! So true. I was about to write a post that says this -- but you did it first. I'm so glad I'm retired now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by turf3 View Post
If your organization has technical people doing project management (and it will usually be the most experienced people, the ones who REALLY need to put their heads down and concentrate on the problem), their constant attendance at status meetings will only slow down the work even further. The solution is to hand off all that management-managing work to the PM, so the technical people can concentrate on solving the problem.
Very true.

I remember everyone working around the clock leading up to tape-out for a next gen processor, and it seemed like everyone up to & including Andy Grove, Craig Barrett (& once even Gordon Moore) calling every 15 minutes wanting a status update...

I'm so glad I'm retired now. Working for a living is highly over-rated.
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Old 04-27-2019, 07:57 PM
 
1,856 posts, read 714,087 times
Reputation: 3960
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonyafd View Post
People who supervise IT people with no IT experience are dangerous. They establish deadlines with no thought as to how much coding is involved. Have any of you been asked how long do you think that this will take ten minutes after they present you with a project? Proper requirement analysis takes a couple of hours even it it is a single program being written.
Exactly what I had to deal with when I was a software developer.
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Old 04-27-2019, 08:49 PM
 
Location: Proxima Centauri
4,795 posts, read 1,980,636 times
Reputation: 5225
Quote:
Originally Posted by BusinessManIT View Post
Exactly what I had to deal with when I was a software developer.

And then there are the user requested design changes as you get close to code completion. And they still expect the deadlines to be adhered to. You make the coding changes which may include scraping or rewriting entire routines and then you need to modify the test plan to accommodate the new changes. What really happens is that unit and system testing gets abbreviated.
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Old 04-27-2019, 09:09 PM
 
Location: Proxima Centauri
4,795 posts, read 1,980,636 times
Reputation: 5225
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlygal View Post
That's not how that works. I don't supervise IT people. I manage the project. We are Agile. We do story sizing where THE DEVELOPERS THEMSELVES tell us how long they believe a story will take. Essentially, they set their own schedule and timeline. Stories are also groomed with the developers and product owners. There is room to adjust and move stories to later sprints, etc.

It's amazing how folks still can't understand that there is more to a project than the tech.

Please define story. It's been a while, but for me the average IT project went like this.

1. Business problem recognized and defined.
2. Initial investigation into requirements - how many programs what do they do
3. High level specifications written.
4. Detailed specifications written.
5. Schedule set up for coding, unit testing and system testing
6. Coding
7. Set up test plan after coding because only after coding do you know what you want to look for.
8. Unit testing
9. System testing
10. In mainframe shops, I would strongly recommend Silk Test with parallel execution and expected results comparisons.
11. In UNIX/Linux shops there are utilities right in the operating system that will compare files in detail.

Of course this assumes that a parallel system exists with sufficient data to simulate real world processing.
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