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Old 04-27-2019, 09:29 PM
 
Location: Proxima Centauri
4,815 posts, read 1,986,314 times
Reputation: 5262

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Quote:
Originally Posted by charlygal View Post
Is this a joke post?

If anything, the opposite is true. It is much easier to automate coding work than it is to automate the FULL job of a PM. Heck, we already have low code development using platforms like Pega.

I don't see any automation built for handling the people, process, or regulatory work done by PMs.

Code generators create code that is difficult to maintain. It is not common for coders to write a new system. Code updates and modifications are much more common.


Move IP-cust-num to ws-cust-num is much more common than move X32-cust-num-32x to x32-cust-num-32y.


Which one would you want to modify and which is in working storage and which just came off of the screen?
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Old 04-28-2019, 12:11 AM
 
279 posts, read 642,950 times
Reputation: 280
We have had both good and bad. The worst one we had just wanted herself to look good to upper management and served no useful purpose. The one we have now communicates really well and knows every aspect of the business, and cuts through red tape. Not the greatest on creating schedules but smooths things over with management when a planning error is made.

Bad ones make more work, more reporting, and more “accountability“ for the people they are supposed to help. Good ones allow the rest of us to focus on what we do best.
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Old 04-28-2019, 08:16 AM
 
11,128 posts, read 8,537,739 times
Reputation: 28094
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonyafd View Post
Please define story. It's been a while, but for me the average IT project went like this.

1. Business problem recognized and defined.
2. Initial investigation into requirements - how many programs what do they do
3. High level specifications written.
4. Detailed specifications written.
5. Schedule set up for coding, unit testing and system testing
6. Coding
7. Set up test plan after coding because only after coding do you know what you want to look for.
8. Unit testing
9. System testing
10. In mainframe shops, I would strongly recommend Silk Test with parallel execution and expected results comparisons.
11. In UNIX/Linux shops there are utilities right in the operating system that will compare files in detail.

Of course this assumes that a parallel system exists with sufficient data to simulate real world processing.
You described waterfall project management. Many companies are moving to Agile, which is an iterative methodology.

A story is just a simple piece of the overall coding work. It simplifies the understanding of the task. It's written in the "As a," "I want," "so that" format that can easily be understood by all parties including the end user.

For instance, "As a financial analyst, I want Adobe Acrobat added to the system so that all my reports are available in PDF format."
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Old 04-28-2019, 08:29 AM
 
Location: Tennessee
23,579 posts, read 17,567,761 times
Reputation: 27660
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonyafd View Post
People who supervise IT people with no IT experience are dangerous. They establish deadlines with no thought as to how much coding is involved. Have any of you been asked how long do you think that this will take ten minutes after they present you with a project? Proper requirement analysis takes a couple of hours even it it is a single program being written.
The PMs don't manage anyone, yet they act like they are your direct boss. It's not about collaboration - they dictate.
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Old 04-28-2019, 08:57 AM
 
6,321 posts, read 3,464,953 times
Reputation: 5729
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlygal View Post
You described waterfall project management. Many companies are moving to Agile, which is an iterative methodology.

A story is just a simple piece of the overall coding work. It simplifies the understanding of the task. It's written in the "As a," "I want," "so that" format that can easily be understood by all parties including the end user.

For instance, "As a financial analyst, I want Adobe Acrobat added to the system so that all my reports are available in PDF format."
A diagram might help explain as well.



User stories have a number of points associated with them. There are usually a certain # of points that can be handled in a 2 week sprint.
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Old 04-28-2019, 09:16 AM
 
11,128 posts, read 8,537,739 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markjames68 View Post
A diagram might help explain as well.


User stories have a number of points associated with them. There are usually a certain # of points that can be handled in a 2 week sprint.
Also, the developers determine the number of points assigned to each individual story.

So, a sprint may have a target of 60 points. The team will determine how many stories they can fit in that sprint after sizing the individual stories.
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Old 04-28-2019, 09:36 AM
 
154 posts, read 74,307 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wellstone View Post
The worst one we had just wanted herself to look good to upper management and served no useful purpose.
This was the "PMP Certified" PM on the last project I was on. I actually went two layers above me at one point and officially requested she be removed from the project and replaced because her inability to manage projects had put the project into complete chaos and was creating substantial risk of failure. Unfortunately due to politics and the reporting structure she could not be removed, however my managers fully supported me and asked it I could work some magic in the background to get the bus out of the ditch and back on the road. Basically I had to step in myself and do politicing with all the people she pissed off to smooth things over and get the project back on track. What a joke I have to write code and also do PM on behalf of the PMP credentialed "PM".

Since she's still there for future projects (long story don't ask) I told my management that any of my projects she is assigned to, that needs to be included in the risk analysis for the project. In other words, her involvement in the project introduces risk, and that needs to be factored in and mitigated up front. Isn't it great to have PM's that not only can't manage projects, but actually introduce risk of project failure when they are involved?
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Old 04-28-2019, 12:05 PM
 
6,844 posts, read 3,716,925 times
Reputation: 18083
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serious Conversation View Post
The PMs don't manage anyone, yet they act like they are your direct boss. It's not about collaboration - they dictate.
This is the issue of why I don't like being a PM in a matrix structure. As far as management is concerned, the PM for a project is your boss for that project because the PM has responsibility for the project. Unless what they want is illegal, unethical, or unfunded, your direct boss should be supporting the PM. Unfortunately what happens is way too often it turns into a "who's the boss?" situation where nothing gets done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by luckydogg View Post
...
Since she's still there for future projects (long story don't ask) I told my management that any of my projects she is assigned to, that needs to be included in the risk analysis for the project. In other words, her involvement in the project introduces risk, and that needs to be factored in and mitigated up front. Isn't it great to have PM's that not only can't manage projects, but actually introduce risk of project failure when they are involved?
I've had that discussion with my management too. Frankly we have a couple where the risk of failure approaches 100% whenever they get involved in a technical project. They do ok with conventional construction work, but as soon as anything technically complex gets added in, forget it; not happening.
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Old 04-29-2019, 04:28 AM
bUU
 
Location: Georgia
11,881 posts, read 8,660,399 times
Reputation: 8401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serious Conversation View Post
The PMs don't manage anyone, yet they act like they are your direct boss. It's not about collaboration - they dictate.
I have found that practically no one has any idea what "collaboration" means. Software developers, especially, are often so caught up in the technology that they think "collaboration" means whatever supports them delivering the software that they want to deliver how they want to deliver it.

The reality is that "collaboration" means (in that context), respecting the product team, marketing and sales to define what software should be delivered, what it should do, and how the user should feel about working with the software; while the product team, marketing and sales respecting the software developers to define the technologies to be employed and implement the software so it satisfies the requirements that the product team, marketing and sales defined.

I've never seen a market researcher second guess a software developer's decision to use a specific algorithm or rely on a certain library or employ a particular ui framework, but I've seen software developers regularly second guess how the customer features are prioritized, regularly grumble about requirements for compatibility with what users already have, etc.

Collaboration is supposed to be an exercise in every discipline bringing their specific expertise to the table to work together to find the best way to achieve the goal. Software developers, especially, seem to be tone deaf to their instinctive, knee-jerk disrespect for other disciplines.

Don't get me wrong. There's a good bit of blame to go around. markjames68 posted a graphic, above, that diagrams how agile product development is supposed to work. How many senior leadership teams have changed the way they manage the business to fit with agile? How many of them are still approving project plans that specify what will be delivered and when, rather than funding lean and agile development operations that proceed in priority order, delivering working software when it satisfies requirements rather than on a specific date (and therefore directing the kind of project manager actions that so many are complaining about in this thread)? How many product managers attend those every-two-week demos indicated in that graphic above?

Some do, I'm sure, but most are still viewing agile as something that the technology groups do. And I suspect contract software development is doing this better than other commercial software development operations. However, having been on both sides and as a third-party, I can say with a level of assurance that it is often the tech side that is off-target with how it works with the rest of the enterprise.
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Old 04-29-2019, 04:40 AM
 
1,550 posts, read 401,594 times
Reputation: 2896
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Unfortunately what happens is way too often it turns into a "who's the boss?" situation where nothing gets done.

Yes, that's the problem with giving everyone all these PM titles. They open up an Atlassian account and everyone's a PM of something, and any real problems can't be handled, they can only be documented because they have no authority to take any real actions. The matrix is another ploy just like handing out PM titles to everyone, to make people think they are actually the boss of something when they aren't at all. This is all to make the non-supervisory employees feel they are a boss of something.
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