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Old 05-01-2019, 10:26 AM
 
1,927 posts, read 3,000,328 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jertheber View Post
When I began working in the automotive trades in the early sixties, we were mostly unionized and the money was very good, the work was a source of personal pride and always done well. In the seventies we were becoming less and less of a unionized workforce, the work wasn't paying as well and the quality was slipping downhill. No one was better off for the loss of union wages with the exception of the shop owners, car owners lost out on the poor workmanship and the technicians lost their wages, health care benefits, and retirement.

Fewer new apprentices became the norm, so the vo-tech schools took over the training. But the environment was not the same in school as in the shops, working in a, for profit shop, taught the apprentices that there were indeed some very real consequences for poor workmanship, attendance, not having the right tools etc. We had to ask the new apprentices to forget their vo-tech education and begin anew.

Working in the trades without a union is simply a dead end proposition. You would need to have a plan in place that included moving on and changing careers just to survive the pace of work and the lack of good pay. Even in these more prosperous times, the trades have little to offer beyond some instant money and a chance to learn new skills. Skill doesn't necessarily lead to great pay in every job, unions were the magnet for the early day tradesmen, not the working conditions or the pride in one's skills.
That's a complete crock. Unions are part of the reason a lot of companies had to declare bankruptcy, because of all these high costs associated with the unions and their respective agreements.

Unions are virtually non-existent in Florida, and everyone is doing very well, and not paying any "dues" to have some perceived privilege of some executive who is supposedly working on their behalf for a big fat paycheck. That money is going straight to the workers instead.

Granted, Unions were a very necessary force back in the late 1800's and early 1900's during the Industrial Revolution as working conditions were not government regulated and companies put workers in extremely harsh working conditions. Those days are long gone. Everyone works their 40 or so hours, gets their vacation every year, time off for kids or whatever, gets paid a minimum amount, the government dictates all of this now.

The era of the Union is over, and has been for a long time. It's a lot like the Southerners who fly the confederate flag shouting "The South is gonna rise again!" It won't, and neither will the Unions.

SS
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Old 05-01-2019, 11:29 AM
 
4,028 posts, read 3,328,147 times
Reputation: 11745
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShakenStirred View Post
That's a complete crock. Unions are part of the reason a lot of companies had to declare bankruptcy, because of all these high costs associated with the unions and their respective agreements.

Unions are virtually non-existent in Florida, and everyone is doing very well, and not paying any "dues" to have some perceived privilege of some executive who is supposedly working on their behalf for a big fat paycheck. That money is going straight to the workers instead.

Granted, Unions were a very necessary force back in the late 1800's and early 1900's during the Industrial Revolution as working conditions were not government regulated and companies put workers in extremely harsh working conditions. Those days are long gone. Everyone works their 40 or so hours, gets their vacation every year, time off for kids or whatever, gets paid a minimum amount, the government dictates all of this now.

The era of the Union is over, and has been for a long time. It's a lot like the Southerners who fly the confederate flag shouting "The South is gonna rise again!" It won't, and neither will the Unions.

SS
Yeah, yeah, I've heard your brand of Kool Aid inspired tirades from the many meatheads who failed to understand the role of unions as a response to the well organized and greedy anti union bosses. Unions were, and still are the only thing that stands between the the alliance of business owners self interests, and the workers interests.

Who got those safety laws passed? Who is still advocating for the worker, the boss? The ownership class is well organized against the workers interests and there's no shortage of proof on that issue, in light of that fact the question remains as to why workers shouldn't be organized at least as well as the bosses. "Companies that had to declare bankruptcy," many businesses have had to take a financial bath, and most intelligent people understand the vagaries associated with BK law, mostly utilized as a legal way to stiff your creditors.

Unions were hated from their infancy, the business class was not going to accept the workers right to organize, even though federal law required them to do so. They kept beating down the union's attempts to organize the worker because they simply wanted to pay what THEY wanted not what was fair. Lastly: Your foolish attempts to paint Florida as an example of a workers paradise is even more humorous than your assertions of corporate greed being something akin to a historical issue out of the past.

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/opin...620-story.html

https://www.tallahassee.com/story/op...ons/483997002/

Please refrain from drinking the anti union Kool Aid until you can bring yourself to do the required reading necessary for a more complete understanding of the modern day American labor struggle, when business greed ends, the need for unions will most likely end also...

Last edited by jertheber; 05-01-2019 at 12:21 PM..
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Old 05-01-2019, 01:18 PM
 
3,919 posts, read 1,029,943 times
Reputation: 4504
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShakenStirred View Post
That's a complete crock. Unions are part of the reason a lot of companies had to declare bankruptcy, because of all these high costs associated with the unions and their respective agreements.

Unions are virtually non-existent in Florida, and everyone is doing very well, and not paying any "dues" to have some perceived privilege of some executive who is supposedly working on their behalf for a big fat paycheck. That money is going straight to the workers instead.

Granted, Unions were a very necessary force back in the late 1800's and early 1900's during the Industrial Revolution as working conditions were not government regulated and companies put workers in extremely harsh working conditions. Those days are long gone. Everyone works their 40 or so hours, gets their vacation every year, time off for kids or whatever, gets paid a minimum amount, the government dictates all of this now.

The era of the Union is over, and has been for a long time. It's a lot like the Southerners who fly the confederate flag shouting "The South is gonna rise again!" It won't, and neither will the Unions.

SS
Those same southerners are against THE UNION, as well as unions... (???)

Everyone is doing very well until they're not. You don't get a 30 year career (and the retirement benefits to go along with it) by getting laid off every time the economy tanks because you "make too much money".

Seniority protects people who have chosen to put their life into that company. Most companies have tenure-based milestones, whether retirement benefits after 20, 25, or 30 years or even increased vacation after 5 years, 10 years, 15 and so on.

It wouldn't be fair to advertise these as benefits if you kept a revolving door so that employees never got to enjoy them. Every additional year put in one company is one less year you have to work towards a new start if the rug gets pulled out from under you.

Unions offer unique benefits such as protected layoff recall. For up to 5 years after being laid off, we will be considered for any open positions (super-seniority) to prevent losing our job and losing tenure. Even time spent without work will count towards tenure (bridging with back-seniority) once reassigned.

The most powerful provision we have in our contract is the "10 year / Tenure" (sounds like you're saying the same thing twice) Employees laid off with >10 years tenure MUST be reassigned to another role of equal pay and benefits - which they must accept / but you cannot give them the ultimatum to accept less pay or walk - OR ELSE the company must continue paying them their full rate and benefits as if they're working 40 hours until reassigned within a 35 mile radius of their current job. Theoretically, if the company fails to act, this can go on indefinitely until retirement.

Keep the turnover in the lower ranks and new hires (they haven't INVESTED much of their life into the company yet, and will be less of an impact than having to start 30 years over with another company.
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Old 05-01-2019, 01:27 PM
 
Location: Heart of Arabia (No, not Dearborn)
1,470 posts, read 511,618 times
Reputation: 2064
Quote:
Originally Posted by JB from NC View Post
Dealing with homeowners is always terrible. I was able to move into commercial/industrial HVAC work after about 4 years in the trade, and I'm glad I did; I don't think I hated anything worse that dealing with a person's filth to get their heat working only to have them try to cheat me out of the bill.

I did HVAC&R in the military for 12 years. Back then, it was legal for us to do side jobs with our own tools/materials and I stayed very busy doing that for private homeowners and small business. (I know HVAC&R company techs hated people like me, but I was not a hack. I offered limited warranty on my work also) Working for myself, I also became fairly adept at sniffing out the pain in the butt customers ahead of time, and always priced accordingly. I priced myself out of more than one job, and never regretted it.

I also preferred light commercial work, which my day job consisted of mostly.


I did a stint as an HVAC instructor for 3 years also. I enjoyed that, loved watching the lights come on with the students.
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Old 05-01-2019, 01:42 PM
 
3,919 posts, read 1,029,943 times
Reputation: 4504
Quote:
Originally Posted by snebarekim View Post
I did HVAC&R in the military for 12 years. Back then, it was legal for us to do side jobs with our own tools/materials and I stayed very busy doing that for private homeowners and small business. (I know HVAC&R company techs hated people like me, but I was not a hack. I offered limited warranty on my work also) Working for myself, I also became fairly adept at sniffing out the pain in the butt customers ahead of time, and always priced accordingly. I priced myself out of more than one job, and never regretted it.

I also preferred light commercial work, which my day job consisted of mostly.


I did a stint as an HVAC instructor for 3 years also. I enjoyed that, loved watching the lights come on with the students.
After some bad experiences with both big HVAC franchises and the "preferred guys" from a family member who is a general contractor, I took a leap of faith and went on craigslist, picked out a company who advertised services for what I needed.

Turns out it was a veteran-owned, 2 man company (man and his son) and they are so customer-centric it's insane. I will be using them as long as they are around. Replaced a part under unit warranty (even when they weren't the ones to install or register the unit) and only charged me for labor ($75/hr) and refrigerant.

No scare tactics, no manipulative upsells. The best part was when he adjusted the fan speed of my air handler up (unit runs much less now).
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Old 05-01-2019, 03:14 PM
 
Location: Long Island
1,748 posts, read 1,418,791 times
Reputation: 1465
Quote:
Originally Posted by snebarekim View Post
I did HVAC&R in the military for 12 years. Back then, it was legal for us to do side jobs with our own tools/materials and I stayed very busy doing that for private homeowners and small business. (I know HVAC&R company techs hated people like me, but I was not a hack. I offered limited warranty on my work also) Working for myself, I also became fairly adept at sniffing out the pain in the butt customers ahead of time, and always priced accordingly. I priced myself out of more than one job, and never regretted it.

I also preferred light commercial work, which my day job consisted of mostly.


I did a stint as an HVAC instructor for 3 years also. I enjoyed that, loved watching the lights come on with the students.
I enjoy teaching the apprentices things. I even manage to get the "lights to come on" for a younger journeyman every now and them.
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Old 05-01-2019, 03:20 PM
 
Location: Long Island
1,748 posts, read 1,418,791 times
Reputation: 1465
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShakenStirred View Post
That's a complete crock. Unions are part of the reason a lot of companies had to declare bankruptcy, because of all these high costs associated with the unions and their respective agreements.

Unions are virtually non-existent in Florida, and everyone is doing very well, and not paying any "dues" to have some perceived privilege of some executive who is supposedly working on their behalf for a big fat paycheck. That money is going straight to the workers instead.

Granted, Unions were a very necessary force back in the late 1800's and early 1900's during the Industrial Revolution as working conditions were not government regulated and companies put workers in extremely harsh working conditions. Those days are long gone. Everyone works their 40 or so hours, gets their vacation every year, time off for kids or whatever, gets paid a minimum amount, the government dictates all of this now.

The era of the Union is over, and has been for a long time. It's a lot like the Southerners who fly the confederate flag shouting "The South is gonna rise again!" It won't, and neither will the Unions.

SS
I've in my trade for 22 years; I spent the first half working for independent non-union shops in North Carolina, and the last half for union shops in both North Carolina and New York.

I'll take the union shop every day of the week.
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Old 05-01-2019, 03:27 PM
 
3,919 posts, read 1,029,943 times
Reputation: 4504
Quote:
Originally Posted by JB from NC View Post
I've in my trade for 22 years; I spent the first half working for independent non-union shops in North Carolina, and the last half for union shops in both North Carolina and New York.

I'll take the union shop every day of the week.
Amen.

Our dues are 1 hour of base pay each pay period (biweekly) and are a small pittance for the callback provisions, double time, pension, protections, and job security that can only be had at such a shop.
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Old 05-01-2019, 08:53 PM
 
Location: Boca Raton, FL
5,245 posts, read 8,794,442 times
Reputation: 6429
Smile How did you get your start?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JB from NC View Post
I'm a HVAC service technician; I have to be proficient with electrical, controls, welding, plumbing, and general mechanics.

And I really enjoy my job most days. I get a tremendous sense of satisfaction when I leave my customer's site and their chiller is back up and running. As a unionized technician, I get good pay, great benefits, and and solid protections from bad managers.
I have a son who is strong, 6'4" and worked his way up in the restaurant industry. It's also a hard, lonely life and leaving the place at 3 AM gets old.

This is the year to change for him.
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Old 05-02-2019, 12:37 PM
 
1,927 posts, read 3,000,328 times
Reputation: 2508
Quote:
Originally Posted by jertheber View Post
Yeah, yeah, I've heard your brand of Kool Aid inspired tirades from the many meatheads who failed to understand the role of unions as a response to the well organized and greedy anti union bosses. Unions were, and still are the only thing that stands between the the alliance of business owners self interests, and the workers interests.

Who got those safety laws passed? Who is still advocating for the worker, the boss? The ownership class is well organized against the workers interests and there's no shortage of proof on that issue, in light of that fact the question remains as to why workers shouldn't be organized at least as well as the bosses. "Companies that had to declare bankruptcy," many businesses have had to take a financial bath, and most intelligent people understand the vagaries associated with BK law, mostly utilized as a legal way to stiff your creditors.

Unions were hated from their infancy, the business class was not going to accept the workers right to organize, even though federal law required them to do so. They kept beating down the union's attempts to organize the worker because they simply wanted to pay what THEY wanted not what was fair. Lastly: Your foolish attempts to paint Florida as an example of a workers paradise is even more humorous than your assertions of corporate greed being something akin to a historical issue out of the past.

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/opin...620-story.html

https://www.tallahassee.com/story/op...ons/483997002/

Please refrain from drinking the anti union Kool Aid until you can bring yourself to do the required reading necessary for a more complete understanding of the modern day American labor struggle, when business greed ends, the need for unions will most likely end also...
First things first...the Orlando Sentinel, and the Tallahassee paper are die hard left leaning liberals establishments. Posting articles from either of them in no way lends or adds any credibility to your response. They don't even qualify as news sources, they are left wing propaganda machines, nothing more.

Now, let me tell you my actual direct experience with Unions, which is more than any of these pencil neck authors have I assure you. We built a restaurant some years back in Baltimore. We had several trades that traveled all over the east coast that did our work for us, because they understood every detail of how the buildings were to be done, and we trusted them. We could build these restaurants in 90 days start to finish, quicker than most Contractors can build a regular house these days. Our block/brick masons were from Louisiana, which is quite a haul. When we started construction, the union thugs in the town tried to force us to use their union labor, at MUCH higher rates than what our subcontractors who had travel/meal/fuel costs added in the mix cost. Had we done so, we would have lost money on the project. Lose enough money and you go out of business, simple as that. Unions don't care about economics though, that much is clear.

Probably because, as one example, in the union rules, you had to have 2 people to hande one block when it's being laid. Our Louisiana boys, who could lay 12" block with one hand by themselves all day, laughed at this, but that's besides the point. Two men to handle the job of one. That's not helpful to the company to double the manpower costs, and that's just one tiny, tiny example of the ludicrous union rules that make them a thing of the past.

Now, once our guys got done laying the block walls and laying all the brick, which incidentally only took them 2 days, whereas a union sub would've taken all week, the next morning when we went to the job, there were union thugs with guns that tried to intimidate us from coming onto the project. Well, needless to say, they didn't, and we went anyways, and lo and behold, these union guys had plastered all the new brick and block work with oil filled balloons. So yeah, our guys had to tear it all down and re-do it, which they did, in another 2 days, which still took less time than a slow union crew could've done the job just once.

So you can tout the merits of the unions all you want, but my experience puts them at the level of feral animals.

So I'll continue to drink any flavored Kool Aid I so desire, and because I don't have a union representative telling me what kind and when to drink it, I will savor its delishness with zest and fervor.

We got the job done, everyone went home happy, and nobody had to pay any dues out of their checks. You can post links until the world ends, and I will never, ever support the role of unions in America. Ever.

SS

Last edited by ShakenStirred; 05-02-2019 at 12:46 PM..
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