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Old 05-08-2019, 10:21 PM
 
2,387 posts, read 683,329 times
Reputation: 3374

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lekrii View Post
I'm not sure what you mean by 'infallibility', so you'll have to clarify that point. I never said anything along those lines.
You have never said it but your actions scream very loudly.

You have NEVER blamed a single employer for the problem. You only blame the candidates. An employee could do everything right and still get rejected for a ridiculous reason and you STILL point the finger at the candidate.

Stop preaching employer infallibility.
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Old 05-08-2019, 10:23 PM
 
2,387 posts, read 683,329 times
Reputation: 3374
Quote:
Originally Posted by hopefulone View Post
That's what some don't seem to realize. The point is going right over their heads.
Just the C-D members who preach employer infallibility are this out of touch.
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Old 05-08-2019, 10:24 PM
 
2,387 posts, read 683,329 times
Reputation: 3374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Quotes A Lot View Post
Neither of you are necessarily wrong. However, it's a matter of finding those who will take you on and help cultivate your newly learned skill under their tutelage. Those managers/employers do exist out there. In fact, if it weren't for managers like that, I wouldn't have moved up in my career. You just need to find the right fit.
But where to find these employers?

They're not exactly advertising "ATTENTION UNIVERSE: WE HAVE ENTRY LEVEL JOBS THAT REQUIRE NO EXPERIENCE."
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Old 05-09-2019, 04:26 AM
 
3,721 posts, read 3,917,156 times
Reputation: 3366
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Quotes A Lot View Post
No, I completely get it. You're up against a lot of resistance. Especially if nothing particularly stands out about you. Which, let's face it, that's the vast majority of us. Very few of us are elite super stars in our field, though some like to think they are due to lack of self-awareness.

But hell, if I can do it, I'm confident that many of you can do it, as you seem like intelligent enough people. A lot of it boils down to persistence; keeping at it until you do succeed.



The point is that many can do the same things you did, keep persisting and still not succeed.


The fact that there are so many hoops and tricks to getting a job should raise eyebrows. Something isn't right and blaming the candidate 100% of the time (which many people do) isn't right. Something is going on behind closed doors at (some) of these companies and their online application process that just isn't adding up.





At what point do we stop with the knee jerk reaction of telling the candidate that:


1. Their resume is the problem
2. Their interview skills are not up to par
3. You need to network
4. Keep gaining new skills
5. Go back to school
6. Find an employer who will take your experience
7. Keep applying you will land something
8. You must have done something wrong



Is there any point where the employer is biased or simply making decisions based on silly standards? It is too easy to say to find an employer who will take transferable skills or whatever, but actually doing it is another story. There is no way to know beforehand. Its not like they are stating in their ads that they will take transferable skills or those who have gained new skills.


Keep in mind that I am not automatically blaming the employer either. I am just tired of people automatically thinking that the candidate is the one who screwed up. It can't ALWAYS be the candidate.
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Old 05-09-2019, 07:20 AM
 
Location: Tennessee
23,541 posts, read 17,525,434 times
Reputation: 27573
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lekrii View Post
There is never a situation where you can learn nothing from going through an interview. How much of the project management skillsets do you have called out on your resume?

What kind of networking do you do to sell yourself as a PM before submitting your resume? What plan do you have in place to expand your network?
Let me put things this way. I'm not sure that I've been clear enough.

I live in a small metro in northeast Tennessee. I'm very well connected in my local area, small though it is. I'll generally get a local recruiter or headhunter sending me a LinkedIn InMail or even sending something to my main email address about a real, local job about once a week. With that said, many of these jobs are temporary, low paying, etc.

I'd like to move to Raleigh, but I don't have any close professional contacts there. None of my vendors work there. I don't know anyone from my current employer who has moved there. I don't have any "ins" that anyone else wouldn't have. Going into a different title in a town you don't know and have few, if any, contacts in, is going to be extremely difficult.
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Old 05-09-2019, 07:54 AM
 
1,853 posts, read 713,275 times
Reputation: 3960
Quote:
Originally Posted by hopefulone View Post
The point is that many can do the same things you did, keep persisting and still not succeed.


The fact that there are so many hoops and tricks to getting a job should raise eyebrows. Something isn't right and blaming the candidate 100% of the time (which many people do) isn't right. Something is going on behind closed doors at (some) of these companies and their online application process that just isn't adding up.





At what point do we stop with the knee jerk reaction of telling the candidate that:


1. Their resume is the problem
2. Their interview skills are not up to par
3. You need to network
4. Keep gaining new skills
5. Go back to school
6. Find an employer who will take your experience
7. Keep applying you will land something
8. You must have done something wrong



Is there any point where the employer is biased or simply making decisions based on silly standards? It is too easy to say to find an employer who will take transferable skills or whatever, but actually doing it is another story. There is no way to know beforehand. Its not like they are stating in their ads that they will take transferable skills or those who have gained new skills.


Keep in mind that I am not automatically blaming the employer either. I am just tired of people automatically thinking that the candidate is the one who screwed up. It can't ALWAYS be the candidate.
Agree. Having been in the labor force since 1980, I have seen things deteriorate for workers through the years. And it isn't about blame. Things change. Workers acquired better conditions in the 1950s, 1960s, and early 1970s. A lot of it through unions. Then things got worse for them. Again, it isn't about blame. Employers want to save on labor costs and there is nothing wrong with that. They can offer a salary of $1 a year and if someone takes it, that's fine. They want to get their money's worth out of each employee. The most work for as little pay as possible. Again nothing wrong. Just free market capitalism.

As hopedfulone has outlined, a worker can do several things to try to stay afloat in this increasingly worker-hostile economy. But that is a separate issue from the deteriorating working environment.

Blaming workers clouds this issue and tries to hide the fact that things gotten worse for them long-term. It is definitely not the worker's fault that things have got this way. Certainly workers should try to improve themselves but there is only so much one can do. Some will succeed. Most will fail.

It is like blaming the passengers of a sinkingTitannic for their ship going down. As the ship continues to go down, passengers are urged to climb higher to avoid going into the water. They are urged to improve themselves, work hard and reinvent themselves. Perhaps learn to walk on water or learn to fly. But that is absurd because it is the ship that is the problem, not them. So like the Titannic example, workers increasingly find themselves with a stacked deck against them, making it more difficult to find and hold a job. And yet they are blamed for that? Absurd.

The bottom line is that when workers are blamed for this situation, it tries to hide the deteriorating conditions for the workers. Ridiculing people who point this out as "complainers" rather than observers also helps to drown out dissent in order to promote the fiction that everything is great.
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Old 05-09-2019, 08:47 AM
 
3,721 posts, read 3,917,156 times
Reputation: 3366
Quote:
Originally Posted by BusinessManIT View Post

The bottom line is that when workers are blamed for this situation, it tries to hide the deteriorating conditions for the workers. Ridiculing people who point this out as "complainers" rather than observers also helps to drown out dissent in order to promote the fiction that everything is great.



I agree as well.



I am surprised that people haven't been told to "start their own company" in this thread. That is usually another knee jerk response to those who bring up issues relating to job searching.
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Old 05-09-2019, 08:50 AM
 
780 posts, read 202,631 times
Reputation: 1134
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobsell View Post
But where to find these employers?

They're not exactly advertising "ATTENTION UNIVERSE: WE HAVE ENTRY LEVEL JOBS THAT REQUIRE NO EXPERIENCE."
These aren't necessarily entry level jobs. I came into my current role with a decade of experience in various areas, but very little in this particular industry. I came in at a near six figure salary. This has pretty much been the story of my career. Every new job has been upwards on the pay scale, and it has been a new learning experience in a new position, a new industry, and sometimes both. They are paying for your transferable experience and skills.

This really isn't a science, so I can't break it down into a formula of how it works out. A lot of it is just getting a lucky break and maybe interviewing well enough for a particular job. I've had plenty of rejections along the way, so it's not like I haven't dealt with plenty of that. What has definitely seemed to work to my advantage is a willingness to learn the ropes. I make that clear in every interview.
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Old 05-09-2019, 08:58 AM
 
780 posts, read 202,631 times
Reputation: 1134
Quote:
Originally Posted by hopefulone View Post
The point is that many can do the same things you did, keep persisting and still not succeed.


The fact that there are so many hoops and tricks to getting a job should raise eyebrows. Something isn't right and blaming the candidate 100% of the time (which many people do) isn't right. Something is going on behind closed doors at (some) of these companies and their online application process that just isn't adding up.





At what point do we stop with the knee jerk reaction of telling the candidate that:


1. Their resume is the problem
2. Their interview skills are not up to par
3. You need to network
4. Keep gaining new skills
5. Go back to school
6. Find an employer who will take your experience
7. Keep applying you will land something
8. You must have done something wrong



Is there any point where the employer is biased or simply making decisions based on silly standards? It is too easy to say to find an employer who will take transferable skills or whatever, but actually doing it is another story. There is no way to know beforehand. Its not like they are stating in their ads that they will take transferable skills or those who have gained new skills.


Keep in mind that I am not automatically blaming the employer either. I am just tired of people automatically thinking that the candidate is the one who screwed up. It can't ALWAYS be the candidate.
I agree with you. The advice we receive is often dismissive, and I blame that on a lack of investment in the situation. Everything you listed above are canned responses that people throw around on this topic. While there is some credence with this advice, lining up a new job/career is very nuanced. There are a lot of variables that can affect the outcomes.

But I will reiterate that persistence is key in accomplishing most endeavors. You should read up on some of the behavioral economics/psychology topics that have to do with 'grit' and 'perseverance' (by Malcolm Gladwell, Angela Duckworth). A lot of people here dishing advice have struggled to get to where they are, it's just that their life story is not written out in full detail for you to understand that. If I told you what I had to do to get to where I'm at now, you'd probably laugh and say something like, "Well that's just not possible for everyone". I had to make some big sacrifices to get to where I'm at now. Very few of us have had an easy, streamlined path to success in our careers. I wish I could tell you the easy secret to getting your dream job, but there really isn't one other than the suggestions above and, as I said, perseverance. The question you need to ask yourself is if you're willing to do what it takes to get to the point that you want to reach. Sad, but true, most people will say 'no thanks'. Ask me how I know that.

Last edited by Sir Quotes A Lot; 05-09-2019 at 09:07 AM..
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Old 05-09-2019, 10:26 AM
 
1,853 posts, read 713,275 times
Reputation: 3960
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Quotes A Lot View Post
I agree with you. The advice we receive is often dismissive, and I blame that on a lack of investment in the situation. Everything you listed above are canned responses that people throw around on this topic. While there is some credence with this advice, lining up a new job/career is very nuanced. There are a lot of variables that can affect the outcomes.

But I will reiterate that persistence is key in accomplishing most endeavors. You should read up on some of the behavioral economics/psychology topics that have to do with 'grit' and 'perseverance' (by Malcolm Gladwell, Angela Duckworth). A lot of people here dishing advice have struggled to get to where they are, it's just that their life story is not written out in full detail for you to understand that. If I told you what I had to do to get to where I'm at now, you'd probably laugh and say something like, "Well that's just not possible for everyone". I had to make some big sacrifices to get to where I'm at now. Very few of us have had an easy, streamlined path to success in our careers. I wish I could tell you the easy secret to getting your dream job, but there really isn't one other than the suggestions above and, as I said, perseverance. The question you need to ask yourself is if you're willing to do what it takes to get to the point that you want to reach. Sad, but true, most people will say 'no thanks'. Ask me how I know that.
Persistence... Good advice. However, persistence is providing diminishing returns. Persistence used to pay off more years ago, but it is getting harder and harder as more employers "get with the program" and get more finessed in extracting large amounts of work from employees for less pay, and in the rise of the ingenious gig economy and other entitlement-liberating notions.

Persistence keeps paying off less and less in the increasingly worker-hostile environment. It didn't used to be that a person had to make "big sacrifices" or even had it hard to break into a career of their choice. Now we do. Back in 1980, I easily waltzed into a software developer career with no experience and very limited programming knowledge. Just a college degree, and with a major not even in anything IT related (Geography). Simple and easy. It was easy to keep a job and grab another within a couple of weeks if one wanted to. You weren't too old to be employed at 40 and you didn't have to jump through endless hoops with HR. You didn't need internships at college to get a job.

Now you have to rely on "persistence". Keep persisting. Maybe somewhere, someday you will succeed. Only take care not to tumble down where you started from after your success. Unfortunately, that is also easier for that to happen to someone nowadays.
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