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Old 05-09-2019, 10:50 AM
 
Location: Proxima Centauri
4,852 posts, read 2,003,735 times
Reputation: 5316

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Quote:
Originally Posted by madpaddy View Post
The employment : population ratio didn't really start improving until Q2 2014. That's the metric I think tells the most complete story. U3/5/6 rates all depend on subjective criteria to try to segregate those that "want to work" from those that don't. What we've seen (and what is a central point of the article referenced in the original post) is that many people who supposedly don't want to be in the workforce will actually take jobs when the demand (i.e. wages) for their labor is enticing enough.

Good catch. Note that according to the chart the work force in April of 2019 is still millions below 1999. I think that this is in part due to forced retirement mostly during the Bush administration. Let me also run this by you. Do you think that corporations is an effort to be more flexible are avoid hiring in favor of contracting work out for a fixed term?
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Old 05-09-2019, 11:34 AM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
8,717 posts, read 3,120,940 times
Reputation: 13145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lekrii View Post
Networking. Develop a few elevator pitches, learn how to talk about yourself, get to know people. Someone at the company you're applying to should know you and your story before HR ever gets a resume.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lekrii View Post
It's a skill like any other. How many hours/week do they practice? People are rarely just good at anything without working at it.
You keep banging this drum with a very steady beat, and completely ignoring any contrary comments.

IF you are in some defined careers with a finite number of possible employers - an actuary in Hartford, a lead software developer in San Jose, a cowboy in Cheyenne - yep, sure, "networking" in your relatively small pool of co-workers and parallel company employees is certain to be very productive. And it starts with all the connections you already have to this small pool - years of working with people who have spread around and give you entry to, say, another company's product announcement or company party or just preferred bar.

BUT if you're a more general worker/professional and you don't have a strong web of work/career ties to build on, it's just a tad more difficult.

There are, conservatively speaking, 5-10,000 businesses in the greater Denver area that could/would hire me to mutually satisfactory ends. They cover the spectrum of business and industry types - from straightforward web and online developers to RE offices to medical professionals to engineering of every type, and of course the growing cannabis industry. Just to name a few.

How, exactly, do you suggest I "network" to 200,000 people in fifty industries across 10,000 companies of every stripe in a geographical region forty miles across? I could spend years (and have) spinning a web so tenuous that no job twitch ever comes across the wires to me.

But yep, if you're one of 1000 software architects in a city zone with four major developers, networking is just da bomb. Got it.
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Old 05-09-2019, 12:27 PM
 
1,249 posts, read 1,504,916 times
Reputation: 831
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
Well.

The lead article in today's NYT addresses the issue of flat wages across the last decade (until their very recent and modest rise) and presents the very well supported conclusion that (among other things) wages did not rise with the supposedly booming job market for a couple of very simple reasons: the job market wasn't really that hot, and the entire picture of unemployment may be misrepresented.

Gosh, where have we heard all this before?

From the article:
The recent uptick in wage growth suggests a simpler explanation: Perhaps the job market wasnít as good as the unemployment rate made it look.

The governmentís official definition of unemployment is relatively narrow. It counts only people actively looking for work, which means it leaves out many students, stay-at-home parents or others who might like jobs if they were available. If employers have been tapping into that broader pool of potential labor, it could help explain why they havenít been forced to raise wages faster.

It appears as if that is exactly what is happening. In recent months, more than 70 percent of people getting jobs had not been counted as unemployed the previous month. That is well above historical levels, and a sign that the strong labor market is drawing people off the sidelines.

(The NYT is running open-paywall for a few days, for reasons worth reading about while you're there, but if you need to get past the paywall limitation, use an incognito/private browser window.)
Maybe all the job growth was H1B based.
Supply increasing with the demand, keeps wages at level.
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Old 05-09-2019, 01:16 PM
 
1,621 posts, read 1,132,333 times
Reputation: 2434
Quote:
Originally Posted by BusinessManIT View Post
Now we do. Back in 1980, I easily waltzed into a software developer career with no experience and very limited programming knowledge. Just a college degree, and with a major not even in anything IT related (Geography). Simple and easy. It was easy to keep a job and grab another within a couple of weeks if one wanted to. You weren't too old to be employed at 40 and you didn't have to jump through endless hoops with HR. You didn't need internships at college to get a job.
I wonder if we know each other! :-)

I wandered into IT at the same time with no degree at all -- just two years of college -- and had an excellent run until the big recession. Then I had to move to a new city where I had no contacts. Between the terrible job market everywhere, software that filters out candidates for incredibly narrow characteristics, and the increasing trend towards hiring short-term contractors or outsourcing instead of having IT workers on staff, I was utterly unable to get a foothold in the job market for many years despite deploying every bit of "grit" and "perseverance" I could muster. It's a different world and I sure am glad I'll be able to retire from it soon. I worry about my nephews, who are both in college now.

I totally understand people who have given up. It really can seem hopeless. There are probably plenty of capable workers out there who got rid of all their stuff and moved in with a family member or found some other way to survive on very little (or ended it all with an overdose).
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Old 05-09-2019, 01:23 PM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
8,717 posts, read 3,120,940 times
Reputation: 13145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kthnry View Post
I totally understand people who have given up. It really can seem hopeless. There are probably plenty of capable workers out there who got rid of all their stuff and moved in with a family member or found some other way to survive on very little (or ended it all with an overdose).
My touchstone for this is the thousands of skilled workers, like tool-and-die makers, who were left jobless by the collapse of the US auto industry in the 1970s. Many used tools handed down from their grandfathers. The jobs never came back, and most were beyond any reasonable retraining except for low-level jobs.

David Halberstam's account of the era includes descriptions of toolboxes in pawn shops... when they gave up their tools, they had truly given up.
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Old 05-09-2019, 01:32 PM
 
1,621 posts, read 1,132,333 times
Reputation: 2434
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonyafd View Post
Do you think that corporations is an effort to be more flexible are avoid hiring in favor of contracting work out for a fixed term?
They say it's for flexibility, but it's just to save money by not paying decent salaries or providing benefits and to avoid the overhead of managing a larger workforce.

Government does it all the time so they can claim that they're keeping headcount down. The federal government has millions of contract employees, many of who have been on the job for decades. All those armies of landscapers, housekeepers, food service workers, IT staff? Contractors. Flexibility has nothing to do with it.

Contracting is a big factor in the reduced mobility of the American workplace. Remember the old saying about working your way up from the mailroom? The mailroom employees are all contractors now and have absolutely no path upward within the company.
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Old 05-09-2019, 01:38 PM
 
1,621 posts, read 1,132,333 times
Reputation: 2434
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
There are, conservatively speaking, 5-10,000 businesses in the greater Denver area that could/would hire me to mutually satisfactory ends. They cover the spectrum of business and industry types - from straightforward web and online developers to RE offices to medical professionals to engineering of every type, and of course the growing cannabis industry. Just to name a few.

How, exactly, do you suggest I "network" to 200,000 people in fifty industries across 10,000 companies of every stripe in a geographical region forty miles across? I could spend years (and have) spinning a web so tenuous that no job twitch ever comes across the wires to me.
+1. I moved to the NYC metro area and had absolutely no idea how to break in. Never did figure it out.
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Old 05-09-2019, 01:48 PM
 
780 posts, read 206,670 times
Reputation: 1134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
There are, conservatively speaking, 5-10,000 businesses in the greater Denver area that could/would hire me to mutually satisfactory ends. They cover the spectrum of business and industry types - from straightforward web and online developers to RE offices to medical professionals to engineering of every type, and of course the growing cannabis industry. Just to name a few.

How, exactly, do you suggest I "network" to 200,000 people in fifty industries across 10,000 companies of every stripe in a geographical region forty miles across? I could spend years (and have) spinning a web so tenuous that no job twitch ever comes across the wires to me.

But yep, if you're one of 1000 software architects in a city zone with four major developers, networking is just da bomb. Got it.
Networking has only worked for me when I intimately knew somebody (i.e. I used to work with them for a bit). I'm in a backroom support type role, and have been most of my career. I don't get a lot of face time with clients; I'm the one generating financial reporting in the background for our client support teams. People in sales and client facing roles promote networking like it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. That's because networking plays a massive role in their line of work.

I have no problem chatting people up about what I do, whether it's at a party, a professional social function, or just out at a bar having drinks. Never has it resulted in a invitation to interview or ultimately a job offer. I imagine it's an entirely different world for those in client-facing roles. I have used LinkedIn a bit more as of late to reach out to HR or others in an industry or company that I am interested in. But I haven't put a lot of work into that admittedly.
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Old 05-09-2019, 02:18 PM
 
1,249 posts, read 1,504,916 times
Reputation: 831
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Quotes A Lot View Post
Networking has only worked for me when I intimately knew somebody (i.e. I used to work with them for a bit). I'm in a backroom support type role, and have been most of my career. I don't get a lot of face time with clients; I'm the one generating financial reporting in the background for our client support teams. People in sales and client facing roles promote networking like it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. That's because networking plays a massive role in their line of work.

I have no problem chatting people up about what I do, whether it's at a party, a professional social function, or just out at a bar having drinks. Never has it resulted in a invitation to interview or ultimately a job offer. I imagine it's an entirely different world for those in client-facing roles. I have used LinkedIn a bit more as of late to reach out to HR or others in an industry or company that I am interested in. But I haven't put a lot of work into that admittedly.
I think they meant shameless brown nosing of people on parties, not just being friendly to them.
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Old 05-09-2019, 04:40 PM
 
1,723 posts, read 567,917 times
Reputation: 3676
Quote:
Originally Posted by BugsyPal View Post
Issue today and really for many years now is that with entire initial and good part of early hiring process now having moved online there is little to nil that can be accomplished by networking.

Yes, there are times when a headhunter, your father or uncle, or maybe just knowing a guy that knows a guy who knows a guy can do something. But in a majority of cases even then word from the top is everyone goes through the same online pipeline.

Am not saying networking doesn't help, because clearly it has in many instances. But these days you can't even get past security and thus into that proverbial elevator without someone "buzzing" you up.

One type of networking still produces good results; best time to find a job is when you have one already. Before you're fired and or if unhappy it is far better to work active connections while you are still seen on top of your game.

Indeed today many new hires are poached from another company, and didn't come through the "help wanted" process at all.
Something like 80% of job openings are filled by networking today. Blindly applying to jobs online where you have no connections is the worst way to look for work.

Get to know people in a company so that they talk to HR before you even apply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobsell View Post
You have never said it but your actions scream very loudly.

You have NEVER blamed a single employer for the problem. You only blame the candidates. An employee could do everything right and still get rejected for a ridiculous reason and you STILL point the finger at the candidate.

Stop preaching employer infallibility.
I absolutely point the finger at myself. There are also obviously bad employers. They discriminate, there is nepotism, a lack of meritocracy, there are awful, unqualified people running many companies. Complaining about them does not help me in my career.

There is always something I personally can do to improve my career progression in spite of those awful people I work with and for. The mature response is to not complain about things I cannot change, but to work to change however I can to improve in spite of other people. So, I blame the candidate.

Tell me, if I posted a multi-paragraph rant against employers, how would that help me in finding my next job?
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