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Old 05-17-2019, 07:41 AM
 
2,477 posts, read 708,263 times
Reputation: 3451

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Quotes A Lot View Post
I've applied to various jobs, and some hired me. There's nothing magical or interesting about it.
So luck.



Quote:
I guess, yes. Is there something wrong with that? Isn't landing most jobs random chance to some extent? A lot of it's about timing; being at the right place at the right time.
If I want to gamble, I'll go to Las Vegas.

A rational business decision is not about luck.


Quote:
How do you think anybody has moved up the career ladder starting from the ground floor?
This is not 1978.

This is 2019.

Every single person who thinks it is easy to get in on the ground floor of a company, has never got hit by the catch-22 - no job, no experience; no experience, no job. Every single time I call them out on that, they blame the candidate and never the employer for putting up a ridiculous catch-22.


Quote:
Employers aren't going to have a choice but to bring on younger, less experienced folks. I've already started seeing this in the field that I'm currently working in.
What field is that?

Employers refuse to hire anyone unless they have 3-5 years experience in that job title. Regardless how nice this economy is currently, that hasn't changed.
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Old 05-17-2019, 07:43 AM
 
2,477 posts, read 708,263 times
Reputation: 3451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Quotes A Lot View Post


I've been looking for this magical formula for most of my career, too; so if anyone can help me find it, I'd be most appreciative.
I'd like the step by step formula to get around the catch-22. There is none. That's why it is a catch-22.

Older workers are discriminated against because "they don't want to learn new things"

But when they do, they get rejected for not having experience in the new field.
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Old 05-17-2019, 07:58 AM
 
780 posts, read 205,854 times
Reputation: 1134
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobsell View Post
So luck.


If I want to gamble, I'll go to Las Vegas.

A rational business decision is not about luck.


This is not 1978.

This is 2019.

Every single person who thinks it is easy to get in on the ground floor of a company, has never got hit by the catch-22 - no job, no experience; no experience, no job. Every single time I call them out on that, they blame the candidate and never the employer for putting up a ridiculous catch-22.


What field is that?

Employers refuse to hire anyone unless they have 3-5 years experience in that job title. Regardless how nice this economy is currently, that hasn't changed.
I don't know what you want me to tell you. Give up? Throw in the towel?

I know there are crap employers/hiring managers out there that have this attitude you are describing above. But there's nothing you can do about it; they're entitled to their opinions.

What I will say is that every employer/hiring manager is not the same. Some will take a chance on you if you fit other criteria (personality, previous experience in other areas, etc.). You gotta stop bundling them all up in the same classification. You are over generalizing and stereotyping, and it does nothing to improve your outlook or odds.

Look, I work in an environment now that I don't really much appreciate. It's borderline hostile at times, and there are patterns of disrespect shown to me and some of my peers. I don't like it, and maybe I will quit soon. However, I'm not going to bemoan every other employer out there because I had a bad experience here or anywhere else. Every situation is unique. Every employer/hiring manager is unique. Not all of them follow the same guidelines as to who they need to hire. You need to stop your incessant complaining about it and find one of those employers who would be willing to give you a shot granted your personality is as humdrum and gloomy as it appears here.

Either that, or try to get on some form of disability or financial assistance if you are having difficulties finding full time work.
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Old 05-17-2019, 08:11 AM
 
Location: Planet Telex
4,679 posts, read 2,303,889 times
Reputation: 4396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Quotes A Lot View Post
What I will say is that every employer/hiring manager is not the same. Some will take a chance on you if you fit other criteria (personality, previous experience in other areas, etc.). You gotta stop bundling them all up in the same classification. You are over generalizing and stereotyping, and it does nothing to improve your outlook or odds.
This is a good point, Sir.

I often make the mistake of lumping them all together too. I had a five-month gap a couple years ago after I quit a toxic place after two months. A lot of hiring managers interrogated me about it and tried to make me feel like I was the problem. However, a couple other ones really didn't even care about it. I always went in expecting the worst from them so I was pleasantly surprised when a HM would tell me, "Oh, that sounds horrible there. I would have quit too!"

There are good and bad all over. The only field where I can say every single interviewer I met with was a total jerk were for sales jobs.
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Old 05-17-2019, 09:18 AM
 
1,720 posts, read 564,877 times
Reputation: 3658
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobsell View Post
Like you, who only rails against the candidates/employees and thinks that employers never do anything wrong?

You've been asked about how to deal with the catch-22, zero solutions provided by you. But you think that employers putting that catch-22 is a good thing.
I've given you many solutions. There is no catch-22. You seem unwilling to take advise, or try anything different. We've had this conversation before.

As I've said to you over a dozen times, employers do a lot of things wrong. I personally can't control what employers do. I can change what I do to be hired in spite of nepotism, favoritism, a lack of accountability, poor management, etc. Why good does it serve my job search or career to complain about an employer, instead of focusing on what I can do to change or improve myself to succeed in spite of bad employers?
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Old 05-17-2019, 09:35 AM
 
780 posts, read 205,854 times
Reputation: 1134
Quote:
Originally Posted by remsleep View Post
How old are you and when was the last time you used this method? What you describe would not work at anything larger than a mom and pop now. My current employer would pass your resume around for laughs before they tossed it in the trash. You would most likely be a bit of legend, the person that thought you could still get a job 1950s style.
My grandmother used to tell me that you need to hit the pavement, walk in randomly to various businesses, and hand them your resume/fill out an app. Bless her sweet little heart.
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Old 05-17-2019, 10:12 AM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
8,717 posts, read 3,104,640 times
Reputation: 13103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lekrii View Post
About a dozen times I've described how to make lists of target companies, how to research people you want to talk to in those companies, and how to put a disciplined plan together on how to build your network.
Yep. At least a dozen times. You've repeated it like a mantra.

And I and others have replied in a fairly specific and cogent way that this is a great process for those who work in a narrowly-defined field with a finite number of potential employers.

For those of us who have broader application of our careers and might find employment in a very wide range of industries, companies, positions and niches... it's just effin' babble.

But you've proven yourself completely incapable of registering that.

Quote:
I've asked how many hours/week you put into those kind of efforts, and I have yet to get a response. Networking does not happen overnight, and it's not just talking to old co-workers. It's something you plan out and dedicate time to when you're searching for a job.
If I were a software developer, the number of employers and the types of positions I might seek and fill would fit on a 3x5 card. Your religious approach would be applicable and hard to argue in any way.

What I do is far more general to business and industry. There are probably 10,000 companies in the Denver area that could and might employ me suitably, if they were seeking to create or fill that position.

Without repeating your effing mantra one more freakin' time... just how do you suggest I "network" most of the business in the 23rd largest city in the US?
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Old 05-17-2019, 10:20 AM
 
630 posts, read 272,992 times
Reputation: 1496
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
Yep. At least a dozen times. You've repeated it like a mantra.

And I and others have replied in a fairly specific and cogent way that this is a great process for those who work in a narrowly-defined field with a finite number of potential employers.

For those of us who have broader application of our careers and might find employment in a very wide range of industries, companies, positions and niches... it's just effin' babble.

But you've proven yourself completely incapable of registering that.



If I were a software developer, the number of employers and the types of positions I might seek and fill would fit on a 3x5 card. Your religious approach would be applicable and hard to argue in any way.

What I do is far more general to business and industry. There are probably 10,000 companies in the Denver area that could and might employ me suitably, if they were seeking to create or fill that position.


Without repeating your effing mantra one more freakin' time... just how do you suggest I "network" most of the business in the 23rd largest city in the US?
Wouldn't networking pay off even better if what you do can be applied to a broad range of industries?

I don't think Lekrii is saying to network with ALL of those 10,000 companies. Just target a handful of them...
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Old 05-17-2019, 10:22 AM
 
780 posts, read 205,854 times
Reputation: 1134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
Without repeating your effing mantra one more freakin' time... just how do you suggest I "network" most of the business in the 23rd largest city in the US?
I hate the idea of networking, because maybe I'm just bad or awkward with it. I hate the idea of 'using' some random individual for my own exploits. Seems so shameless to me. It's one thing to work with someone for years and they recruit you to another organization they joined. I've had that happen before, and I was okay with that, because I felt that I had proven myself to that person and they wanted me to join their team.

One thing I'd suggest that might be a more reasonable venue for this is attending industry-specific organizations or groups. Galvanize (similar to WeWork, but for tech companies) holds various meetups where the speaker will present on some new program that Galvanize is offering for a fee. It's a good way to meet people who have similar interests or goals as you, as well as those who are in the industry you're trying to break into.

There are a variety of professional associations for different industries that hold events around the area. There are also Meetup groups that are specific to an industry or profession. I'd be okay with attending those, because everyone who attends realizes what they're getting into; a networking event. On the other hand, I really feel uncomfortable randomly reaching out to people I don't know on LinkedIn to talk them up about a job they may not be trying to fulfill on their team. I've had this happen to me on occasion on LinkedIn, and I usually don't respond or apologize to them for not having any additional info or resources for them. I'm not going to randomly advocate for a stranger I don't know.
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Old 05-17-2019, 10:30 AM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
8,717 posts, read 3,104,640 times
Reputation: 13103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liar_Liar View Post
Wouldn't networking pay off even better if what you do can be applied to a broad range of industries?
Yes, if I can spend my careful hours of research and targeting finding the ones that are actually seeking to hire.

That's the point. If there's only five targets to shoot at, Lek's patient chanting is perfect advice. You can spend hours, days, weeks dialing in your scope on them.

Quote:
I don't think Lekrii is saying to network with ALL of those 10,000 companies. Just target a handful of them...
Not much more useful. If I have - oh, let's make it reasonable - a thousand potential employers in at least ten separate industries, exactly where do I focus that monkish few hours a day? I could, say, find five or six RE firms amid hundreds... and none of them might be hiring my specialty. Or legal firms. Or publishers. Or graphic design firms. Or web developers. Or any company that needs technical documentation.

Yep, I could convert to the Lekrii faith and say my prayers diligently... and never connect with an active hiring opportunity at any time I'm engaging it.

Networking does not work for everyone. Period.
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