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Old 05-17-2019, 12:32 PM
 
621 posts, read 270,566 times
Reputation: 1480

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Quotes A Lot View Post
That's not the same thing as what is being suggested here (networking with random strangers). What you're referring to is nepotism/cronyism. Those types of relationships take tremendous amounts of time to establish, something you generally don't have when you're trying to get a job immediately.

Then there is what I have mentioned, which is networking with people whom you've worked with in the past. That's generally the type of networking I prefer, because it occurs organically.
That's exactly what my idea of networking is... Aiming to socialize with people who have ambitious career goals so you could have a few acquaintances who can do you those type of favors later on in life. It's a way to build a safety net if they are ever in the market for a new job.

If we are talking about getting a job.. like next week.. Then.. Yea, networking wouldn't be that person's best bet.

Last edited by Liar_Liar; 05-17-2019 at 12:41 PM..
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Old 05-17-2019, 12:57 PM
 
1,708 posts, read 559,991 times
Reputation: 3625
Quote:
Originally Posted by buenos View Post
you are so wrong. That is what HR thinks also, that is why they don't feel they are damaging their own employer by rejecting few of those "identical" candidates. In my field 1% of the people are capable of developing a product from scratch within budget with competitive feature set. The remaining 99% are incompetent charlatans and stupid corporate drones. When I review resumes or interview many people, I rarely see someone who understands the details of our profession at a level of being positively productive. People have impressive credentials like Principal engineer for 10 years at Intel or Cisco, then I ask them technical questions and they just cannot answer most of those. I ask them what projects they worked on and what their role was in the project, and the answer describes someone like what an intern would be doing not a principal engineer. I guess they got their current jobs through nepotism or networking. Little maffias are milking the corporate cow, but they are unemployable by any other meritocratic company..
And that will come out in an interview. To get an interview, however, you need to get through HR, which is where networking is useful. Networking gets you into the door. It doesn't get you past an interview with the hiring manager.

Let me repeat my question, why on earth did you use the terms 'blacklist' and 'scam' when presented with the idea of simply talking to someone you admire and asking them about their career? What is it with people on this forum who think being technically skilled and having social skills are mutually exclusive things?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
I'm putting no effort into trying to learn to fly by flapping my arms, either.

Dear Zeus, you are obtuse.

I spend at least two hour a day working on employment, but through channels and efforts that have some hope of connecting me with a job. The absolutely zero-traction method you keep chanting like a mantra is not something I waste time on, and I've explained why at around ten times the length of your work-prayer.
Statistically, over 70% of hires are found through some form of networking. Applying cold to jobs online has under a 5% success rate. You're saying you'd prefer to not put any effort into methods that have such a high rate of success?
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Old 05-17-2019, 12:58 PM
 
780 posts, read 205,031 times
Reputation: 1134
Quote:
Originally Posted by buenos View Post
Corporations these days make people sign a paper that states that you will refrain from recruiting former colleagues, or else. So I contact former colleagues, and when they receive my message they are in deep fear of being sued by my employer and them loosing everything they have. So they don't respond.
I don't work with any serious proprietary IP stuff, where maybe this is more prevalent, so I've never encountered anything like this in my career.
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Old 05-17-2019, 01:07 PM
 
1,232 posts, read 1,499,015 times
Reputation: 827
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lekrii View Post
And that will come out in an interview. To get an interview, however, you need to get through HR, which is where networking is useful. Networking gets you into the door. It doesn't get you past an interview with the hiring manager.

Let me repeat my question, why on earth did you use the terms 'blacklist' and 'scam' when presented with the idea of simply talking to someone you admire and asking them about their career? What is it with people on this forum who think being technically skilled and having social skills are mutually exclusive things?

Statistically, over 70% of hires are found through some form of networking. Applying cold to jobs online has under a 5% success rate. You're saying you'd prefer to not put any effort into methods that have such a high rate of success?
You still dont understand the big picture. HR rejects 80% of candidates, and passes 20% to the HM. The HM would only hire 1% of the original 100% applicants. The HR's 20% and the HM's 1% have no overlap because they use different criteria. HR is broken, and must be fixed. If you know HM's tell them to demand HR to stop screening resumes for critical technical positions. If you know anyone in HR tell them the same thing. If you know top executives, tell them to take away the screening responsibility from HR because they are damaging the company.

Often people discuss their experience about random people trying to connect on LinkedIn. Or in general a stranger being overly friendly, is what most people consider creepy. If you are trying to establish a connection for a job with someone who did not work with you, who did not have a chance of observing your work performance over years, they will feel used and bounce back.
I tried a lot of networking, but it does'n work well, people are less helpful then you think. Even people I known for 10 years, refuse to place a referral in their database.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Quotes A Lot View Post
I don't work with any serious proprietary IP stuff, where maybe this is more prevalent, so I've never encountered anything like this in my career.
My last 2 jobs were serious about the non-recruit clause, actually it is a separate document they make you sign or else you cannot start working there.
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Old 05-17-2019, 02:17 PM
 
Location: Greensboro, NC
650 posts, read 244,108 times
Reputation: 1551
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Quotes A Lot View Post
That's not the same thing as what is being suggested here (networking with random strangers). What you're referring to is nepotism/cronyism. Those types of relationships take tremendous amounts of time to establish, something you generally don't have when you're trying to get a job immediately.

Then there is what I have mentioned, which is networking with people whom you've worked with in the past. That's generally the type of networking I prefer, because it occurs organically.
This all day long.

When people suggest searching and contacting "targeted" people I don't know and have never met, with the purpose of getting a job that may or may not be available in their company/field...no thank you; that is blatantly weird and disingenuous.

I had a random dude hit me up on LinkedIn, asking me to help him get a position at my company. Uhhh, no dude, I don't know you and I am not sticking my neck out for someone I've never worked with. Hell it should've been clear from my profile that I'm not even the hiring manager. I'd expect the same sentiment in return if I tried to "network" with someone who has never met/worked with me.

A person can have lots of friends, but if you don't have the luck of them being 1) in or connected to your field and 2) close to a hiring manager for an open position, then networking is a far cry from helping you get the job or even an interview.
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Old 05-17-2019, 03:53 PM
 
1,708 posts, read 559,991 times
Reputation: 3625
Quote:
Originally Posted by buenos View Post
You still dont understand the big picture. HR rejects 80% of candidates, and passes 20% to the HM. The HM would only hire 1% of the original 100% applicants. The HR's 20% and the HM's 1% have no overlap because they use different criteria. HR is broken, and must be fixed. If you know HM's tell them to demand HR to stop screening resumes for critical technical positions. If you know anyone in HR tell them the same thing. If you know top executives, tell them to take away the screening responsibility from HR because they are damaging the company.

Often people discuss their experience about random people trying to connect on LinkedIn. Or in general a stranger being overly friendly, is what most people consider creepy. If you are trying to establish a connection for a job with someone who did not work with you, who did not have a chance of observing your work performance over years, they will feel used and bounce back.
I tried a lot of networking, but it does'n work well, people are less helpful then you think. Even people I known for 10 years, refuse to place a referral in their database.
HR is broken. I agree, that's not a useful statement, though. I'm not going to change HR processes. The simple fact is networking as I described gets you past HR fairly easily (at least in comparison to the 5 seconds of attention your resume will get if you apply cold online)

These are just social skills. You aren't calling some schmoozing. You aren't randomly sending LinkedIn messages. You're reaching out to people asking if they can talk about their careers and how they got to be where they are. Well more than half of people will take you up on that offer to grab coffee, talk on the phone, exchange emails, etc provided you have some connection. That might be they are the friend of a friend of a friend. It might be they went to the same college as you. You might join a weekly cooking class just to meet new people, and you talk to someone there. It is building relationships with people. It does take time, it won't find you a job next week, but neither will randomly applying to jobs online. Building and maintaining a network is far more effective than applying cold to jobs online and hoping to hear a response.

One person I reached out to recently is the brother in law of someone who went to my college. That's enough of an excuse to call him and say "Hey, I'm Lekrii, I went to school with xxx, I've been looking into <his field here> and was wondering we could talk for a few minutes sometime". Most people do not say no to something like that. You aren't asking for a job, you aren't schmoozing, you're just having a conversation with someone. It's incredibly uncomfortable to do if you're not used to it. I'm extremely introverted, it doesn't come naturally to me. It's a skill though, and a very useful one to have.
Like any other skill, you practice it.

It might be different if HR wasn't "broken", but we won't change HR, so that's not a useful thought process

Last edited by Lekrii; 05-17-2019 at 05:12 PM..
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Old 05-17-2019, 06:22 PM
 
1,614 posts, read 1,127,195 times
Reputation: 2429
Interesting anecdote about how hard it is to find and reach people these days -- my sister works for the international affairs office of a large city. She is helping to arrange the visit of a group of university researchers from overseas to meet with local tech leaders. She was told to contact a certain high-ranking person at a large company in the area to coordinate their attendance at the conference. She called the main number and explained who she was and why she was calling. The receptionist said that they didn't have a phone number on file for this guy and couldn't take a message; my sister would need to find another way to contact him. My sister asked what she suggested, and the receptionist told her to try connecting with him on LinkedIn. This just illustrates the lengths to which companies will insulate their employees from outside contact.
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Old 05-17-2019, 06:26 PM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
8,687 posts, read 3,074,962 times
Reputation: 13001
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kthnry View Post
Interesting anecdote about how hard it is to find and reach people these days...
I recently submitted a resume and other materials to a company that I really, really would have liked to hear from. The submission process had no slot for a cover letter or even a quick cover note, so I spent most of a day trying to find ANY contact method I could use to send a cover letter as an adjunct to the app.

Never found one, and I am not exactly inept with things like deep searches and contact trails. (I have, through my career, fairly often contacted prominent people through email or phone.)

This company, a well-established one with several hundred employees, simply had no exterior contact method except a web-form contact page. Not even in the most indirect ways.
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Old 05-19-2019, 08:39 PM
 
281 posts, read 124,492 times
Reputation: 525
Quote:
Originally Posted by BusinessManIT View Post
Again, listen to what you are saying. Respecting people's viewpoints without calling them out or complaining about them is paramount to maintaining credibility. People should have the right to post their views without being bullied about them.
Thatís why I donít post much.
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Old 05-20-2019, 07:16 AM
 
Location: Greensboro, NC
650 posts, read 244,108 times
Reputation: 1551
Quote:
Originally Posted by buenos View Post
you are so wrong. That is what HR thinks also, that is why they don't feel they are damaging their own employer by rejecting few of those "identical" candidates. In my field 1% of the people are capable of developing a product from scratch within budget with competitive feature set. The remaining 99% are incompetent charlatans and stupid corporate drones. When I review resumes or interview many people, I rarely see someone who understands the details of our profession at a level of being positively productive. People have impressive credentials like Principal engineer for 10 years at Intel or Cisco, then I ask them technical questions and they just cannot answer most of those. I ask them what projects they worked on and what their role was in the project, and the answer describes someone like what an intern would be doing not a principal engineer. I guess they got their current jobs through nepotism or networking. Little maffias are milking the corporate cow, but they are unemployable by any other meritocratic company.
Sadly, this seems to be a heavy trend across multiple fields of engineering. A lot of companies hire people with engineering degrees but then only have them doing basic technical tasks at most - even though the job title is actually (fill in the blank) Engineer. The rest of their time is spent on busy work that should've been done by an intern, or they're doing management-esque duties rather than deep technical work. They then fall into the pattern of those types of jobs, and you wind up with the situation you're describing. Engineers end up losing those strong technical abilities (or never practicing them in the first place) and unfortunately fall out of touch with product design/development skills. Many employers are diluting the world of true engineering with crap.
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