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Old 05-22-2019, 09:36 AM
 
Location: The Triad (NC)
28,525 posts, read 62,253,689 times
Reputation: 32222

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianGC View Post
There's networking with people you actually know,
then there are these delusions of grandeur...
Many seem to deliberately miss (at least) two key elements in this:
1) Networking isn't limited to when you decide or need to make a move.
It's constant and at least half of it is about YOU having helped others in some manner before.

2) Bypassing the application process requires the ability to meet the decision maker.
Absent the sort of networking that gets you introductions you're limited to small(er) shops...
and/or accepting just about whatever you're offered to get in with the big(ger) shops.

And 3rd (there's always something else, right?)
a willingness to expect "something less" in order to get back on the payroll & bennies coming in horse.
If you're all as wonderful as you all like to assert... you'll be on top again.
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Old 05-22-2019, 12:05 PM
 
1,228 posts, read 1,499,015 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational View Post
Many seem to deliberately miss (at least) two key elements in this:
1) Networking isn't limited to when you decide or need to make a move.
It's constant and at least half of it is about YOU having helped others in some manner before.

2) Bypassing the application process requires the ability to meet the decision maker.
Absent the sort of networking that gets you introductions you're limited to small(er) shops...
and/or accepting just about whatever you're offered to get in with the big(ger) shops.

And 3rd (there's always something else, right?)
a willingness to expect "something less" in order to get back on the payroll & bennies coming in horse.
If you're all as wonderful as you all like to assert... you'll be on top again.
So, for other peoples' anti-meritocratic activities, you are suggesting job seekers to do more anti meritocratic activities. Instead of talking to your HR to stop blocking qualified candidates because you are sick of interviewing only morons that HR lets you interview.
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Old 05-22-2019, 12:13 PM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
8,669 posts, read 3,074,962 times
Reputation: 12980
Quote:
Originally Posted by buenos View Post
So, for other peoples' anti-meritocratic activities, you are suggesting job seekers to do more anti meritocratic activities. Instead of talking to your HR to stop blocking qualified candidates because you are sick of interviewing only morons that HR lets you interview.
I don't read most of that in MrR's post.

Yes, it's awful that HR screening has become essentially random, choosing only the cream of applicants who present everything just right... leaving behind qualified applicants who have insufficient keyword count and other meta-screening flaws.

But using connections to reach a person who might have interest and say over hiring is not anti-meritocratic unless you're trying to get hired because your breasts are really big. I don't really see it as anti-meritocratic except in that knowing someone who knows someone gets you further than being one of fifty blind applicants. What's a-m is that idiotically narrow and bugged meta-selection process.
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Old 05-22-2019, 12:22 PM
 
1,228 posts, read 1,499,015 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
I don't read most of that in MrR's post.

Yes, it's awful that HR screening has become essentially random, choosing only the cream of applicants who present everything just right... leaving behind qualified applicants who have insufficient keyword count and other meta-screening flaws.

But using connections to reach a person who might have interest and say over hiring is not anti-meritocratic unless you're trying to get hired because your breasts are really big. I don't really see it as anti-meritocratic except in that knowing someone who knows someone gets you further than being one of fifty blind applicants. What's a-m is that idiotically narrow and bugged meta-selection process.
I worked with many incompetent morons who got their jobs like this. If there was no networking, then companies would be forced to hire qualified candidates. But since there is an infinite supply of friends and relatives, they don't have any pressure to find competent people. When a mediocre or incompetent person gets a job, he announces success as he is getting position and money. But that is a failure. So when MrRational gets the job, then the job will be done at a low quality, costing many millions of dollars to his new employer in lost business opportunities. Networking most of the times helps unqualified candidates. Having to compete with brown noses and liars is a lost battle, as there are so many of them. Both HR and networking prefers liars and anti-merit candidates. That comes out of the other end most of the time.
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Old 05-22-2019, 12:25 PM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
8,669 posts, read 3,074,962 times
Reputation: 12980
Quote:
Originally Posted by buenos View Post
I worked with many incompetent morons who got their jobs like this. If there was no networking, then companies would be forced to hire qualified candidates. But since there is an infinite supply of friends and relatives, they don't have any pressure to find competent people. When a mediocre or incompetent person gets a job, he announces success as he is getting position and money. But that is a failure. So when MrRational gets the job, then the job will be done at a low quality, costing many millions of dollars to his new employer in lost business opportunities. Networking most of the times helps unqualified candidates. Having to compete with brown noses and liars is a lost battle, as there are so many of them. Both HR and networking prefers liars and anti-merit candidates. That comes out of the other end most of the time.
Even though I question the universal value of networking - I think it works better in certain narrow industries, best for those who already have a large web of contacts, and not at all for some - I can only read your post as serious sour grapes.

And I say that as someone very much out in the cold because networking is not a tool that will get me past the nearly universal HR metascreening.

Life's not a frakkin' meritocracy. Get over it or go back to being a permanent grad student in the warm, fuzzy world where all is merit.
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Old 05-22-2019, 12:43 PM
 
Location: Tennessee
23,614 posts, read 17,606,575 times
Reputation: 27693
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianGC View Post
LOL I'm trying to remember what movie that's from

There's networking with people you actually know, then there are these delusions of grandeur where other posters seem to think you can arbitrarily contact some higher up who doesn't know you and score the job.
Yep. I've gotten jobs through networking before. It's largely been either family, personal friend, or former coworker who knew someone.

Randomly contacting hiring managers based on whatever research you can do is actually bad, IMO.
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Old 05-22-2019, 12:52 PM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
8,669 posts, read 3,074,962 times
Reputation: 12980
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serious Conversation View Post
Randomly contacting hiring managers based on whatever research you can do is actually bad, IMO.
I'm not sure if you misunderstand the posts or simply framed that sentence awkwardly... the most recent suggestion of can't-fail methods is not to contact hiring managers, but managers who are hiring... that is, not HR, but actual department heads.

I can't see much downside to pestering HR managers. Nor much upside.

But the likely waste of time and casual blacklisting that would result from trying to contact and schmooze department managers, no matter how well it might have worked for some go-go hard-sell type, is all downside.
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Old 05-22-2019, 01:36 PM
 
Location: Tennessee
23,614 posts, read 17,606,575 times
Reputation: 27693
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
But the likely waste of time and casual blacklisting that would result from trying to contact and schmooze department managers, no matter how well it might have worked for some go-go hard-sell type, is all downside.
This is what is likely to happen.
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Old 05-22-2019, 02:11 PM
 
1,228 posts, read 1,499,015 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by serious conversation View Post
this is what is likely to happen.
+1
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Old 05-22-2019, 03:40 PM
 
1,613 posts, read 1,127,195 times
Reputation: 2429
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
But the likely waste of time and casual blacklisting that would result from trying to contact and schmooze department managers, no matter how well it might have worked for some go-go hard-sell type, is all downside.
I tried that once out of desperation during the recession. I was trying to get a foot in the door at a local company for a tech writing job. I had no contacts, so I sent my resume (paper mail!) to a couple of lead engineers who were listed on the company web site asking them to forward it to the person who managed their tech pubs. I heard back from the manager, who stopped just short of threatening me with a restraining order. No, he did not appreciate my initiative.
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