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Old 05-18-2019, 10:45 AM
 
1,465 posts, read 1,213,445 times
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Why dont you do something other than sales?? A dependence on others is one of the down sides to a sales position.
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Old 05-18-2019, 10:47 AM
 
763 posts, read 438,405 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckeye77 View Post
funny how these threads are always dominated by folks who are talented, extra hard workers, and all the folks they work with are slackers, and their managers/bosses are all incompetent morons. I'm long ago retired, but I doubt things have changed a lot since I was working, and I think it was Shakespeare that said "the empty vessel makes the loudest noise" (not an exact quote)
Times have changed.

I am a top performer. I have been received straight 5s (walks on water) by every manager I have had for the last 15 years. I have won every performance award our company offers. I was flown to the corporate office to accept an award from our CEO in front of the the entire company (thousands of people) for my process innovations and service.

Sorry there are a lot of morons in management these days that don't have the ability to think critically, lead their teams effectively and meet corporate goals. Companies are too afraid of being sued to fire these folks. The only reason my manager has a job still is because as the supervisor I pick up all his slack. He rolls in to work daily at 11 and is out by 2. Prior managers were working 70 hours a week. He missed a deadline for a subpoena from the Department of Labor...Empty vessel NOT.
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Old 05-18-2019, 10:58 AM
 
Location: 500 miles from home
30,208 posts, read 16,679,584 times
Reputation: 22717
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serious Conversation View Post
I don't think basic competence is an issue as much as heavy bureaucracy and excessive waste/fat.
I agree. But that also impacts basic competence as competent people won't stay.

Yes, it depresses me.
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Old 05-18-2019, 11:05 AM
 
Location: In a vehicle.
5,064 posts, read 3,237,132 times
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Well, it's sort of 50-50. The workers and the customers. Recently they raised a fuss regarding returns from the customers. The issue is "Appearance" and frankly that can change from one day to the next.

Then they admitted that of the returns, over 60% were from dayshift. Now the thing about that is also due to the head of QC saying "That's fine" when it really wasn't. (Swing and Grave slide between 10-20%, so we're not pure either)

The other issue is now we have a replacement, but he's not up on "appearance" and thus they are still shipping parts that are not really looking acceptable. ( I heard rumors they do it so their hoping the client is desperate to accept them anyway)

I can understand internal parts which the buyer won't see. But the buyers also are nitpicking even when they admit that the buyer will never see the part...
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Old 05-18-2019, 01:38 PM
 
6,886 posts, read 3,743,330 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angie682 View Post
Times have changed.

I am a top performer. I have been received straight 5s (walks on water) by every manager I have had for the last 15 years. I have won every performance award our company offers. I was flown to the corporate office to accept an award from our CEO in front of the the entire company (thousands of people) for my process innovations and service.

Sorry there are a lot of morons in management these days that don't have the ability to think critically, lead their teams effectively and meet corporate goals. Companies are too afraid of being sued to fire these folks. The only reason my manager has a job still is because as the supervisor I pick up all his slack. He rolls in to work daily at 11 and is out by 2. Prior managers were working 70 hours a week. He missed a deadline for a subpoena from the Department of Labor...Empty vessel NOT.
Too me the biggest thing that has changed is how many managers have never done the job before managing it. I'm not talking about knowing all the specific details of every job under them, but they haven't even done similar jobs. They simply have no understanding of what the job entails or what the business is about. They all come from the false school of management that any competent manager can manage anything. Whether razor blades or guided missiles. Well they can't. Just yesterday I had to explain again, to the same person, for the umpteenth time, certain processes worked certain ways. He still can't grasp the fact that things in this field don't work the same as things in he previous field.
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Old 05-18-2019, 01:43 PM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
8,717 posts, read 3,116,388 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Too me the biggest thing that has changed is how many managers have never done the job before managing it. I'm not talking about knowing all the specific details of every job under them, but they haven't even done similar jobs. They simply have no understanding of what the job entails or what the business is about. They all come from the false school of management that any competent manager can manage anything.
Well, it's a paradox, ain't it.

If someone is actually trained and experienced in management, they're part of a layer of useless fat, waste and unproductivity.

If someone is given management responsibilities because they're the hottest dog at the company task... they're very likely assured to fail and **** everyone off.

Guess we should just close down all the companies and be done with it.
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Old 05-19-2019, 08:21 AM
 
6,886 posts, read 3,743,330 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
Well, it's a paradox, ain't it.

If someone is actually trained and experienced in management, they're part of a layer of useless fat, waste and unproductivity.

If someone is given management responsibilities because they're the hottest dog at the company task... they're very likely assured to fail and **** everyone off.

Guess we should just close down all the companies and be done with it.
Well, not really. If we look at how it worked in the past. Good leaders look among their staff and see who starts to demonstrate leadership. Watch and you'll see some people just naturally start demonstrating leadership and management skills. Groom those people by giving them small tasks that develop management skills. Pay for them to take the courses in management to develop that knowledge.

Used to be done all the time. It's a false paradox to believe it's an either/or situation. Take science and engineering for example. You can take a good engineer and grow a good manager. You can't however take a good manager and grow a good engineer.

The keyword is grow. If not from within your organization, then from within your industry. What doesn't work is to plop someone directly into a management position and expect them to know a job they haven't done before. Take Nardelli's move from GE to Home Depot as an example of a very senior executive totally out of the industry where he was successful.
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Old 05-19-2019, 08:27 AM
 
706 posts, read 258,719 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lekrii View Post
Yep. That's actually one of the dangers you run into when you see a company with a lot of people who have been there for a very long time. Good people tend to job hop a little, given they don't put up with things like that. If you're interviewing and see a lot of people who have been at a company for decades, it could be a warning sign that they are bad workers, and run by bad management.

That being said, everyone will always work with some incompetent people. Being able to get things done in spite of those people (and to understand them and win them to your way of thinking) is a pretty important skill to develop.
Good people tend to job hop a little, given they don't put up with things like that - that's an absurd idea. Good people tend to stay to the end with the team, to work hard to bring the ship up when it has holes and starts to sink. Sometime those people may be able to save the ship; sometime not. It's not an easy job. Bad people tend to take advantage of the ship when it’s good and sailing well, and they may even abuse the ship; and when it starts to wear out, they jump to other ship.

There are always good and bad long time and new employees.

Yes, some long time employees may feel entitled and are lazy and mean. Many of them get older and become weaker and sick and become burdens for the company. Those affect the ones who work hard, and are healthy because they know how to take care of themselves, even though they’ve been there for a long time and older also.

And there are young employees who are eager to learn more and work hard and help the company to improve; and there are young employees who think they studied so hard, they got degrees, they are entitled for good jobs with high pay right at the beginning. If they don’t get what they want, they feel angry, upset, and they start to seek jobs somewhere else.

And most employers want to pay the least and make employees to work the most. And eventually they want to get rid of the employees who have been there for a long time because they (the employees) have experience and high pay, and they want to hire new ones with less money.

Nowadays, it seems like there are more and more people with no patience, no tolerance and no loyalty anymore (yeah, someone may say loyalty is an imagination, is a stupid idea). Most people think to be go-getters, job hoppers, to be able to do the least and get the most is smart and great – it’s something to be proud of. And for employers too, when they have used the young, healthy, eager, energetic, talented employees for a number of years, and then they want to let those employees go because those employees are expensive.

That’s the problem of both sides: Employers want employees to do the most and pay the least; and employees want to get pay the most and do the least.

And there are some people who are narcissistic, controlling, incompetent and jealous, and they will never admit that they have problems.
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Old 05-19-2019, 09:09 AM
 
706 posts, read 258,719 times
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Does the incompetence of your Company depress you?

Yes. But what can you do? Nowadays, many managers value the employees who are social able and often bring in candies, baking goods and food and talk talk and talk about what they do on the weekends, the weather, their personal life, anyone's life, or the life of celebs, than the employees who have knowledge about their job and work hard.

Many employers and managers value "soft" skills than technical skills. That's why more and more people need to learn about "soft" skills. Whoever is not a talker, need to learn to talk, need to learn to flatter others, especially to flatter the management even they are incompetent. No matter how good you are technically at your job, if you don't know how to go around and talk and socialize and flatter others, you will have to work more, and you still are not a valuable employee.

So don't work so hard, and learn to talk more. Even talking sh*t, such as how you were so sick, having vomiting, diarrheas, or constipations, etc... and one by one co-worker, and eventually many join in and talk and talk about their sickness, this and that, for hours, is better than nothing. Just talking about sickness (not a real sickness) is contagious. Such a 'fun' topic to talk about. It does not matter how long time it takes. But that kind of talk is allowed by the management because that is 'sharing'. That is a 'team player'.

And the management and many employees have sympathy for the sick ones, and they have no sympathy for the healthy and hard working ones. You are healthy and work hard, you will have to do more to cover up for the sick ones.

Last edited by AnOrdinaryCitizen; 05-19-2019 at 10:36 AM..
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Old 05-19-2019, 11:48 AM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
8,717 posts, read 3,116,388 times
Reputation: 13135
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
It's a false paradox to believe it's an either/or situation.
True; I was just summarizing the gist of the posts so far. I completely agree that there's a reasonable, organic, productive way to build a company hierarchy... but once it's past about 20 people you will still see factions from both ends of the complaint spectrum.

Quote:
Take Nardelli's move from GE to Home Depot as an example of a very senior executive totally out of the industry where he was successful.
My touchstone for this is the Apple genius who took years and billions to discover that you can't run a department store chain like Apple Stores.

For what might the original example, read Halberstam's The Reckoning... his chapters about how MacNamara and the other biz whiz kids came in and almost destroyed Ford with their utter lack of knowledge about the industry should be required reading in MBA school.

(When plant managers told him the paint ovens dating from the 1920s were too small for 1940s models, his suggestion was to paint the cars in two halves and then weld them together.)
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