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Old 06-03-2019, 11:45 AM
 
Location: In a city within a state where politicians come to get their PHDs in Corruption
1,467 posts, read 1,131,970 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greglovesoldtrucks View Post
Off the rails a bit but related...

When I was made a dept. manager back in the early 90's in my 1000 + employee place of employment, my director was giving me the grand tour.

As he was handing me the keys to my office, he told me there was one rule that I should never forget whenever I was in my office.

The rule was... If I ever had a female visiting in my office alone with me, I was to NEVER, EVER... close the door.




But, that's not a solution either. By doing that you admit to not knowing how to act properly in front of a female co-worker. I'm a firm believer almost all men and women come to work trying to do their best. Why would I act or run my company based on what the very few do or don't do?

 
Old 06-03-2019, 12:10 PM
 
20,549 posts, read 16,619,414 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tolovefromANFIELD View Post
Workplace sexual harassment isn't a criminal offense, but rather a civil one. Sexual assault is a criminal offense, however.

As far as what courts have deemed illegal, look up some court cases, and you'll see it's much narrower than what is presented here.

Right. People act like it's easy to sue someone for sexual harrassment. It's not just "she said it so it must be true, you owe her $1,000,000.00". In actuality it requires detailed documentation that establishes a pattern. You have to show you went to HR, what they did or didn't do about it, who you went to next, etc, etc. It is not easy to win these kind of cases, and it takes years.
 
Old 06-03-2019, 12:15 PM
 
20,549 posts, read 16,619,414 times
Reputation: 38581
Quote:
Originally Posted by tolovefromANFIELD View Post
[/b]

But, that's not a solution either. By doing that you admit to not knowing how to act properly in front of a female co-worker. I'm a firm believer almost all men and women come to work trying to do their best. Why would I act or run my company based on what the very few do or don't do?

I went to a chiropracter's office who did this. He wouldn't shut the door in the treatment room whether male or female patient. I actually think leaving it open was a HIPAA violation, because everyone in the waiting room could clearly hear what you and the doctor discussed. A few months before my back surgery (before I had a correct diagnosis), I burst into tears in the treatment room while telling him that in the morning I had to crawl to the bathroom due to the pain, and he still wouldn't close the door. When I walked back out into the waiting area everyone was staring at me with pity and I found it very embarrassing. I was actually pretty angry after.
 
Old 06-03-2019, 12:27 PM
 
20,549 posts, read 16,619,414 times
Reputation: 38581
Quote:
Originally Posted by tolovefromANFIELD View Post
I understand. But in your rush to discredit my point, you actually proved it. By saying fat, skinny, pretty, ugly women get harassed, or that it doesn't discriminate, doesn't that mean EVERYONE?

Oh, now context all of a sudden matters? But, it doesn't when a woman "feels" or "thinks" she's harassed? Then it should be taken as a bible? Who can keep up with the hypocrisy anymore?

It means "everyone" the same way a sign can say "Everyone Welcome", it doesn't mean everyone in the city goes there. It means it can happen to anyone. A poster stated it seemed only unattractive women get harrassed, and that poster responded that's not true, it happens to everyone. It's pretty silly to try to claim she meant literally every female gets harrassed.



It doesn't work like that, it's not about simply feeling harrassed. many of the women here have been telling stories about being back into corners by bosses and other overt examples of what we went through especially back in the day. I have seen it myself with the Russian students who come over to work in the summer. This isn't a figment of an overactive imagination. Women have been dealing with this for as long as we've been working, it's just now that people feel free to say it outloud, so it may seem like it's all of a sudden everyone is being harrassed. But many women here including me have experienced it directly. Like I said, it started for me as a teen, and I only experienced it in lower level jobs (never in my career as a therapist) but when a teen girl asks to leave work early, the response should not be to be backed into a corner by a 50 year old man and told to kiss him first. This stuff happens everyday, often to women who are too afraid to tell (many immigrants) or who need the job too desperately to leave.



Like I said, I think we are swinging to far in the other direction (as we are with opiods, we do everything to extremes) but that doesn't discount the legitimacy of women who are just now being given a voice to tell their stores. For most of human history we weren't believed. It's a good thing that's changing, even if the pendulum at first is swining too wide.
 
Old 06-03-2019, 12:41 PM
 
Location: In a city within a state where politicians come to get their PHDs in Corruption
1,467 posts, read 1,131,970 times
Reputation: 2970
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocnjgirl View Post
It means "everyone" the same way a sign can say "Everyone Welcome", it doesn't mean everyone in the city goes there. It means it can happen to anyone. A poster stated it seemed only unattractive women get harrassed, and that poster responded that's not true, it happens to everyone. It's pretty silly to try to claim she meant literally every female gets harrassed.



It doesn't work like that, it's not about simply feeling harrassed. many of the women here have been telling stories about being back into corners by bosses and other overt examples of what we went through especially back in the day. I have seen it myself with the Russian students who come over to work in the summer. This isn't a figment of an overactive imagination. Women have been dealing with this for as long as we've been working, it's just now that people feel free to say it outloud, so it may seem like it's all of a sudden everyone is being harrassed. But many women here including me have experienced it directly. Like I said, it started for me as a teen, and I only experienced it in lower level jobs (never in my career as a therapist) but when a teen girl asks to leave work early, the response should not be to be backed into a corner by a 50 year old man and told to kiss him first. This stuff happens everyday, often to women who are too afraid to tell (many immigrants) or who need the job too desperately to leave.



Like I said, I think we are swinging to far in the other direction (as we are with opiods, we do everything to extremes) but that doesn't discount the legitimacy of women who are just now being given a voice to tell their stores. For most of human history we weren't believed. It's a good thing that's changing, even if the pendulum at first is swining too wide.




It is naive to think women are somehow innocent in all this. Do you know how many times I've been proposed to in my role as a management consultant and a business owner? Way more times than I've seen a creep try to cop a feel, or offer a promotion for services in exchange?

Yet in all my times of finding myself in uncomfortable positions, not once was I not able to handle it. We're humans. Often we see our bosses/co-workers/clients more than we see our partners/spouses. We sometimes say and/or do things that we otherwise wouldn't do. I don't think that's harassment, as much as people trying to fill a void in their life.

It would be a lot healthier conversation if the narrative wasn't simply: men are creeps, and women are victims. It's a bit more complicated than that.
 
Old 06-03-2019, 01:13 PM
 
20,549 posts, read 16,619,414 times
Reputation: 38581
Quote:
Originally Posted by tolovefromANFIELD View Post
[/b]

It is naive to think women are somehow innocent in all this. Do you know how many times I've been proposed to in my role as a management consultant and a business owner? Way more times than I've seen a creep try to cop a feel, or offer a promotion for services in exchange?

Yet in all my times of finding myself in uncomfortable positions, not once was I not able to handle it. We're humans. Often we see our bosses/co-workers/clients more than we see our partners/spouses. We sometimes say and/or do things that we otherwise wouldn't do. I don't think that's harassment, as much as people trying to fill a void in their life.

It would be a lot healthier conversation if the narrative wasn't simply: men are creeps, and women are victims. It's a bit more complicated than that.

You may have had a harder time handling it if you're an immigrant working in a chicken processing plant somewhere down south, or a single mother with a decent factory job she can't afford to lose. Or a teenaged girl in her first job. I don't think a peer asking a co-worker out is a problem, and I willingly had an affair with a boss once, but again at first the pendulum will swing too wide. It;s just how we deal with every issue it seems.



I don't think most women see all men as creeps, and I don't think most men see all women as victims. But to tell your story and not be believed, to have 25 women or so tell their stories in this thread, and see men come on and say "it's all BS", is not acceptable part of the debate. Of course there are some women who make up stories, just as there are people who jump on the bus after it gets in an accident so they can make a claim, but those are exceptions and should be seen as such.
 
Old 06-03-2019, 01:39 PM
 
Location: In a city within a state where politicians come to get their PHDs in Corruption
1,467 posts, read 1,131,970 times
Reputation: 2970
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocnjgirl View Post
You may have had a harder time handling it if you're an immigrant working in a chicken processing plant somewhere down south, or a single mother with a decent factory job she can't afford to lose. Or a teenaged girl in her first job. I don't think a peer asking a co-worker out is a problem, and I willingly had an affair with a boss once, but again at first the pendulum will swing too wide. It;s just how we deal with every issue it seems.



I don't think most women see all men as creeps, and I don't think most men see all women as victims. But to tell your story and not be believed, to have 25 women or so tell their stories in this thread, and see men come on and say "it's all BS", is not acceptable part of the debate. Of course there are some women who make up stories, just as there are people who jump on the bus after it gets in an accident so they can make a claim, but those are exceptions and should be seen as such.
Except they're not exceptions. 80%-95% of all harassment complaints to EEOC/Sister State Agencies get tossed out for lack of probably cause. This is done by the very same agencies whose job depends on "continued" harassment. Otherwise, why would they exist?

Your argument is believe us (except for few bad apples) without acknowledging complicity by the very same women who complain the loudest in the first place.

Real world doesn't work like that.
 
Old 06-03-2019, 01:58 PM
 
20,549 posts, read 16,619,414 times
Reputation: 38581
Quote:
Originally Posted by tolovefromANFIELD View Post
Except they're not exceptions. 80%-95% of all harassment complaints to EEOC/Sister State Agencies get tossed out for lack of probably cause. This is done by the very same agencies whose job depends on "continued" harassment. Otherwise, why would they exist?

Your argument is believe us (except for few bad apples) without acknowledging complicity by the very same women who complain the loudest in the first place.

Real world doesn't work like that.
I donít think you can go by EEOC claims for the number of women who experienced harassment, because the vast majority of women who have never tell a soul let alone file a claim. I think the people who file claims are exceptions not the rule. Of all the many women who experienced harassment at work and told their stories here on this thread, I donít think a single one of us stated they (we) told anyone whether in or outside of work. None filed claims or sued. Even if itís true that 80% of women who try to sue get their cases tossed, that is not the same as saying 80% of women who say theyíve experienced harassment are not telling the truth.
 
Old 06-03-2019, 02:09 PM
 
Location: In a city within a state where politicians come to get their PHDs in Corruption
1,467 posts, read 1,131,970 times
Reputation: 2970
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocnjgirl View Post
I donít think you can go by EEOC claims for the number of women who experienced harassment, because the vast majority of women who have never tell a soul let alone file a claim. I think the people who file claims are exceptions not the rule. Of all the many women who experienced harassment at work and told their stories here on this thread, I donít think a single one of us stated they (we) told anyone whether in or outside of work. None filed claims or sued. Even if itís true that 80% of women who try to sue get their cases tossed, that is not the same as saying 80% of women who say theyíve experienced harassment are not telling the truth.
I agree. And my point still stands. You can't address one without acknowledging the other. Many women play the same game, just different positions.
 
Old 06-03-2019, 02:30 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
78,614 posts, read 70,508,089 times
Reputation: 76581
Quote:
Originally Posted by tolovefromANFIELD View Post
What I meant actual, and I think you know this since your level of reasoning is a bit above the garden variety found here, is the instances of women experiencing themselves "actual" workplace sexual harassment.

Now, of course I know many instances of sexual harassment go unreported, and women often leave rather than fight. None of that means though that sexual harassment is as prevalent as it's made out to be.
No one's arguing that it's hugely prevalent. I said in my response to the OP that it wasn't as prevalent as she seemed to think, per her original post. ("The media tells us that most women will experience sexual harassment in the office." No source given.) Whom are you arguing with? lol. We're pretty much all in agreement, that not all women are harassed in every workplace, or even half the women in every workplace. Or half the women in half the workplaces, lol.

What's your point, exactly?
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