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Old 06-09-2019, 12:56 PM
 
4,546 posts, read 4,730,637 times
Reputation: 3595

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
If you're relying on the recruiter, wow. My experience (this is for scientific and engineering jobs primarily) as an employee applying for jobs and as a hiring manager hiring for those jobs, is HR tends to make two critical mistakes: They tend to screen out some of the most qualified people and screen in the unqualified. So not only are they ineffective in weeding out the unqualified, but they are a net negative in weeding out the most qualified.

Let me give one example. I applied for a position I knew I was qualified for. This application required transcripts at the application stage. Got a rejection letter saying I was unqualified. Somehow I was able to actually get hold of the HR screener (can't call her a recruiter because she was un-recruiting). She told me I didn't have enough math to qualify, when my transcripts clearly showed way more than enough. She said I only had one math course. So I started going down the list: calculus of single variable, calculus of multiple variables, differential equations, partial differential equations, and so on. That's when she stopped me and said non of those were math courses. Told me that if it were math, it would say the word "math." As in Math101, Math102.

In the years since, I have continued to observe the same thing as a hiring manager at several locations and different HR departments. I get hundreds of resumes of unqualified applicants from HR and I know for a fact that qualified applicants get screened out.
Canít say Iíve ever worked in a role that required transcripts. I work in programming/Machine Learning. I tell the recruiter what to look for given what I need and they usually produce the 15-20 resumes that most closely match. Like I said before of the 100+ resumes usually half of them are in no way qualified. Sorry, not going to consider a person with a degree in education for a stats/ml role. I also think your anecdotes are just that, itís not as if a recruiter would have their job very long if every time they passed over all the best qualified applicants. You guys seem to believe there is either a conspiracy against you and you are always getting ignored because of being the most qualified or a conspiracy against qualified people in general. Do they sometimes miss qualified people? Probably, but thatís the name of any filtering system. You screen out some false negatives with all the true negatives.

Last edited by mizzourah2006; 06-09-2019 at 01:06 PM..
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Old 06-09-2019, 01:03 PM
 
6,091 posts, read 2,825,233 times
Reputation: 6011
Quote:
Originally Posted by TamaraSavannah View Post
"Where's your PhD from, Doctor? Oh, you don't have one? Then what gives you the qualifications, the right, to build such a list and harm my client? We'll see you in court!".

Slander and libel are two serious charges, especially when you don't have the credentials that might save you.
There is no credential that will save you from a legitimate slander or libel charge.
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Old 06-09-2019, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Texas Hill Country
9,810 posts, read 5,486,486 times
Reputation: 8383
Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxPhd View Post
There is no credential that will save you from a legitimate slander or libel charge.

Well, there might be.



See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_the_Sea_Will_Tell
(the aftermath section)
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Old 06-09-2019, 01:13 PM
 
6,091 posts, read 2,825,233 times
Reputation: 6011
Quote:
Originally Posted by TamaraSavannah View Post
Well, there might be.



See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_the_Sea_Will_Tell
(the aftermath section)
No, there isn't.


An opinion is protected, until it crosses into slander or libel. And a credential won't save you.


In the issue you referenced, it wasn't the fact that he was an attorney that protected Bugliosis.
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Old 06-09-2019, 02:12 PM
 
6,851 posts, read 3,720,840 times
Reputation: 18093
[quote=mizzourah2006;55383578]Canít say Iíve ever worked in a role that required transcripts. I work in programming/Machine Learning. I tell the recruiter what to look for given what I need and they usually produce the 15-20 resumes that most closely match. Like I said before of the 100+ resumes usually half of them are in no way qualified. Sorry, not going to consider a person with a degree in education for a stats/ml role. I also think your anecdotes are just that, itís not as if a recruiter would have their job very long if every time they passed over all the best qualified applicants. You guys seem to believe there is either a conspiracy against you and you are always getting ignored because of being the most qualified or a conspiracy against qualified people in general. Do they sometimes miss qualified people? Probably, but thatís the name of any filtering system. You screen out some false negatives with all the true negatives.[/QUOTE

I've had to submit transcripts for every new job I've had. Our new hires all have to submit transcripts to HR for vetting. We've had multiple times just in the last couple of years where we had to fight HR over the transcript of someone we wanted to hire yet didn't fit one of HR's criteria.

I agree that you shouldn't hire someone without the proper education. Last year I got over a thousand resumes that HR considered qualified because they had passed the HR screen. After I went through there were less than a hundred that were actually minimally qualified and maybe 20 worth interviewing. We're constantly rejecting whole lists that HR sends us because not one person on the list meets the minimum qualifications. We're hiring physicists and engineers and HR will send up a whole list of education and business majors. The only positive is after years of complaining, HR has finally relented and is allowing us to send technical people to recruit at colleges rather than HR people.

No one is saying there is a conspiracy against the qualified. What we are saying is HR and it's processes isn't qualified to make that determination.
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Old 06-09-2019, 02:50 PM
 
1,225 posts, read 1,495,969 times
Reputation: 817
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
HR policies may come down from corporate, but HR writes the policies for the C-suite to sign. HR recommends the software to use. So it's a bit disingenuous for HR to say they don't make decisions. They may not technically make the actual decision, but they constrain the decision space to their preferred outcomes.
Those executives dont even understand what they are signing. They assume that HR serves the corporation, but in reality, HR people are cult members serving an ideology of "corporate equal utopian safe space clubhouse culture" or something. This is total malpractice, or embezzlement: using the resources and power available to them, but not for its intended purpose but serving other interests (not the company's interests).



Quote:
Originally Posted by mizzourah2006 View Post
Sorry, not going to consider a person with a degree in education for a stats/ml role.
The problem is you trust HR to be capable of making that determination. That is a fatal mistake. They could not be possibly able to do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mizzourah2006 View Post
itís not as if a recruiter would have their job very long if every time they passed over all the best qualified applicants.
That is an assumption. This assumption is the reason probably why this abomination keeps going on undetected by people with power to stop it. Time to time you should request all resumes, then check whether the top candidates were rejected by hr. you are up for a big surprise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
No one is saying there is a conspiracy against the qualified. What we are saying is HR and it's processes isn't qualified to make that determination.
The HR ideology is a leftist type of ideology. Leftism is by definition a desire of building a utopia where the only people allowed are the ones who meet certain requirements. It is always a mob type utopia where everyone is equal, everyone is the same, no one put into shame, no one criticizes anyone, therefore anti meritocratic. So, it is by design against skilled people.
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Old 06-09-2019, 03:07 PM
 
Location: Chicago area
8,803 posts, read 13,294,168 times
Reputation: 15959
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Let me give one example. I applied for a position I knew I was qualified for. This application required transcripts at the application stage. Got a rejection letter saying I was unqualified. Somehow I was able to actually get hold of the HR screener (can't call her a recruiter because she was un-recruiting). She told me I didn't have enough math to qualify, when my transcripts clearly showed way more than enough. She said I only had one math course. So I started going down the list: calculus of single variable, calculus of multiple variables, differential equations, partial differential equations, and so on. That's when she stopped me and said non of those were math courses. Told me that if it were math, it would say the word "math." As in Math101, Math102.

In the years since, I have continued to observe the same thing as a hiring manager at several locations and different HR departments. I get hundreds of resumes of unqualified applicants from HR and I know for a fact that qualified applicants get screened out.
Had a similar experience. Molecular Biology and Biochemistry are more or less used interchangeably and spent 10 minutes trying to educate a cerebrally challenged HR person fruitlessly. Unfortunately they are as arrogant as they are unintelligent.
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Old 06-10-2019, 04:34 PM
 
Location: Seattle
1,784 posts, read 1,020,043 times
Reputation: 3057
If HR is as powerfully incompetent as you believe then imagine how bad C-suite management must be to allow it.
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Old 06-10-2019, 11:38 PM
 
1,225 posts, read 1,495,969 times
Reputation: 817
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sockeye66 View Post
If HR is as powerfully incompetent as you believe then imagine how bad C-suite management must be to allow it.
Management was lied to.
They didn't expect a whole department to have an agenda that is contrary to the business interest. They didn't think HR would serve an ideology rather than their employer's needs.
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Old 06-11-2019, 06:35 AM
 
Location: Chicago area
8,803 posts, read 13,294,168 times
Reputation: 15959
If there is one thing I have learned working in the food industry it is that we are losing the battle against fake/junk science. Half of what we do where I work is make the labels sound nice in a very expensive way that makes no actual difference to the food. It just makes it less flavorful and more expensive. Unfortunately the mis- and un-educated consumers buy into it. Same thing with management.

Last edited by MSchemist80; 06-11-2019 at 06:47 AM..
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