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Old 06-14-2019, 03:57 PM
 
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Then please post or link to the correct code. Simply saying that isn't very informative or helpful. I'm no expert here, I'm trying to understand. If you know something please tell us.
Over a year ago when I was researching an issue, I came across this topic. I dug, and googled and searched online, and found a rationale for the code, and the purpose, and why there was no definition as to which disabilities qualified.

I found some link to a page on some site saying why it was left vague. I've since not really needed to try to find it again. And I'm not doing all that digging again. It's out there you'll just have to find it. Keep searching I assure you it's out there.

Quote:
If the person is disability is not severe enough to need an accommodation, then how exactly is he taking advantage of anything? That’s the part I don’t get it
The doc isn't asked what is it, and the hiring folks don't (or can't) ask you what it is. I don't even know whether the code says to be a "disability" the person HAS TO need some kind of work accommodation.

IF the person's "disability" doesn't require a work accommodation -- and don't forget there's no definition of disability for this purpose -- then why, indeed, would they be able to be hired through Schedule A? It's a loophole. You get a doc to sign a form that you have XYZ. Well that XYZ may not affect your work at all. No more than anyone else who has a condition that's not "a disability." They just can't get a doc to say the condition is a disability. It may not be. But if a person can find a doc who will do it that could be all they need.

But it's no more a loophole than others that might be exploited in any other area of life.....
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Old 06-14-2019, 07:07 PM
 
1,491 posts, read 823,066 times
Reputation: 2457
Quote:
Originally Posted by selhars View Post


The doc isn't asked what is it, and the hiring folks don't (or can't) ask you what it is. I don't even know whether the code says to be a "disability" the person HAS TO need some kind of work accommodation.
I've seen nothing to suggest that they do. That isn't the main point of it, as I said above. The object is to employ people with disabilities. They do not have to be employed in positions that are affected by that disability.

Quote:
IF the person's "disability" doesn't require a work accommodation -- and don't forget there's no definition of disability for this purpose --
If you are going to keep saying that then you are going to have to back it up. I've posted definitions.

Quote:
then why, indeed, would they be able to be hired through Schedule A? It's a loophole. You get a doc to sign a form that you have XYZ. Well that XYZ may not affect your work at all.
Again, not the point of the Schedule A process. Are you suggesting that a person without legs should be required to work in a standup job in order to enjoy being hired under Schedule A? The definition does not require that the person be substantially limited in a work capacity. That is not what determines disability. Disability is being substantially limited in a major life function. Its something that is present 24 hours a day, not just when they are at work, and not necessarily when they are at work.

This is my understanding, anyway. Also, I'm pretty sure that anyone who does request a substantial accommodation whose disability is not obvious would be required to produce additional medical documentation. The Schedule A letter does not give you carte blanche to whatever accommodation you desire.
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Old 06-14-2019, 07:44 PM
 
Location: Southern New Hampshire
7,283 posts, read 12,747,739 times
Reputation: 22276
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocnjgirl View Post
I’m confused. If the person is disability is not severe enough to need an accommodation, then how exactly is he taking advantage of anything? That’s the part I don’t get it
I THINK it's because it's simply a different "route" into a federal job -- what some might think is an "easier" (i.e. less competitive) route? I'm only guessing, though. Given how coveted federal jobs are, I imagine the fear of some (not speaking for Selhars!) is that people applying through Schedule A are going to have an easier time getting hired. (I have no idea if the reality matches that, though!)
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Old 06-14-2019, 08:26 PM
 
20,811 posts, read 16,774,519 times
Reputation: 39033
Quote:
Originally Posted by selhars View Post
Over a year ago when I was researching an issue, I came across this topic. I dug, and googled and searched online, and found a rationale for the code, and the purpose, and why there was no definition as to which disabilities qualified.

I found some link to a page on some site saying why it was left vague. I've since not really needed to try to find it again. And I'm not doing all that digging again. It's out there you'll just have to find it. Keep searching I assure you it's out there.



The doc isn't asked what is it, and the hiring folks don't (or can't) ask you what it is. I don't even know whether the code says to be a "disability" the person HAS TO need some kind of work accommodation.

IF the person's "disability" doesn't require a work accommodation -- and don't forget there's no definition of disability for this purpose -- then why, indeed, would they be able to be hired through Schedule A? It's a loophole. You get a doc to sign a form that you have XYZ. Well that XYZ may not affect your work at all. No more than anyone else who has a condition that's not "a disability." They just can't get a doc to say the condition is a disability. It may not be. But if a person can find a doc who will do it that could be all they need.

But it's no more a loophole than others that might be exploited in any other area of life.....
But having a disability doesnít make it more likely youíre going to get hired. I still donít get it. How is it to the persons advantage to claim a disability?
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Old 06-14-2019, 09:04 PM
 
Location: Southern New Hampshire
7,283 posts, read 12,747,739 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocnjgirl View Post
But having a disability doesnít make it more likely youíre going to get hired. I still donít get it. How is it to the persons advantage to claim a disability?
Because the "excepted service" is potentially a lot less competitive than the "competitive service." (Tried to write this above in the post right above yours, but obviously I wasn't clear enough! )

From one of the links above, specifically https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/publicatio...#_Toc425081245 :

- Schedule A "is an Excepted Service appointment for persons with disabilities."
- The person can be hired without the hiring department having posted a job announcement: "One of the benefits of using the Schedule A hiring authority is that agencies can make an appointment without going through the typical competitive process. As Schedule A is an excepted service hiring authority, individuals are hired non-competitively." This seems GIGANTIC.

- Agencies are "strongly urged" to convert Schedule A hires to the competitive service at the end of 2 years. Again, this seems gigantic.
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Old 06-14-2019, 10:43 PM
 
1,491 posts, read 823,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karen_in_nh_2012 View Post
Because the "excepted service" is potentially a lot less competitive than the "competitive service." (Tried to write this above in the post right above yours, but obviously I wasn't clear enough! )

From one of the links above, specifically https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/publicatio...#_Toc425081245 :

- Schedule A "is an Excepted Service appointment for persons with disabilities."
- The person can be hired without the hiring department having posted a job announcement: "One of the benefits of using the Schedule A hiring authority is that agencies can make an appointment without going through the typical competitive process. As Schedule A is an excepted service hiring authority, individuals are hired non-competitively." This seems GIGANTIC.

- Agencies are "strongly urged" to convert Schedule A hires to the competitive service at the end of 2 years. Again, this seems gigantic.

agencies can make an appointment without going through the typical competitive process.
Yes, but they do this when managers want to hire a person with disability. That's the whole point, to make it easier to find and hire persons with disabilities. That (in my understanding) is the only time the process is non-competitive.

Not all advertised positions are open to persons with disabilities, they have to apply competitively. Even with jobs that are open to persons with disabilities, there is no requirement that a person with disability be hired. So the advantage is there, but its not gigantic.



I've been following some other forums and encountered some people who are already permanent in the competitive service and have applied under schedule A for years for other positions and never even get an interview. Others are quite turned off by what is essentially a 2 year probation. While they can convert you after two years, or even earlier if the manager recommends it, they aren't likely to do so if you aren't performing well and they aren't required to.

Of course if someone does their job well for 2 years they deserve to be converted.
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Old 06-15-2019, 01:19 AM
 
7,045 posts, read 3,913,697 times
Reputation: 15004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deserterer View Post
Then please post or link to the correct code. Simply saying that isn't very informative or helpful. I'm no expert here, I'm trying to understand. If you know something please tell us.

This is pretty much what I already said in post #4 above.




But they do need a job. I'm not aware that the goal is to put people into positions where they can only function with accommodation. As I understand it the goal is to employ persons with disabilities at the same rate as persons without disabilities, and we are still not achieving that in the US. Even with the abuse of the law that you seem to think is occurring, persons with disabilities have much higher unemployment rates.
In the State of New York one cannot be considered unemployed unless they "are ready, willing and able to work." The level of disability would determine if the person was "able" to work. I suspect other states have similar qualifications.
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Old 06-15-2019, 07:32 AM
 
1,491 posts, read 823,066 times
Reputation: 2457
Quote:
Originally Posted by kokonutty View Post
In the State of New York one cannot be considered unemployed unless they "are ready, willing and able to work." The level of disability would determine if the person was "able" to work. I suspect other states have similar qualifications.

Here are the Bureau of Labor Statistics stats on employment and disability.



https://www.bls.gov/news.release/disabl.nr0.htm


I started to apply for a federal job that is open to persons with disabilities last night and again came across the "severe physical disability" wording.
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Old 06-15-2019, 09:16 AM
 
20,811 posts, read 16,774,519 times
Reputation: 39033
Quote:
Originally Posted by karen_in_nh_2012 View Post
Because the "excepted service" is potentially a lot less competitive than the "competitive service." (Tried to write this above in the post right above yours, but obviously I wasn't clear enough! )

From one of the links above, specifically https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/publicatio...#_Toc425081245 :

- Schedule A "is an Excepted Service appointment for persons with disabilities."
- The person can be hired without the hiring department having posted a job announcement: "One of the benefits of using the Schedule A hiring authority is that agencies can make an appointment without going through the typical competitive process. As Schedule A is an excepted service hiring authority, individuals are hired non-competitively." This seems GIGANTIC.

- Agencies are "strongly urged" to convert Schedule A hires to the competitive service at the end of 2 years. Again, this seems gigantic.
Because something is written down doesn’t mean it’s actually followed in practice. Do we have any stats to show the percentage of people with disabilities they have on their roles compared to non-disabled?
Also I know you mentioned things such as heart disease, but I really don’t think that would qualify someone for disability yet still be allowed to work by a doc. I also don’t think Doctor signed these things willy-nilly.
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Old 06-15-2019, 10:10 AM
 
Location: Southern New Hampshire
7,283 posts, read 12,747,739 times
Reputation: 22276
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocnjgirl View Post
Because something is written down doesnít mean itís actually followed in practice. Do we have any stats to show the percentage of people with disabilities they have on their roles compared to non-disabled?
Um, all I was doing was trying to answer your question about why it might be to someone's "advantage" to "claim" a disability -- why some non-disabled people (who CANNOT apply through Schedule A) might see the program as a "loophole," as some see affirmative action as a "loophole" for people of color. I wasn't at all saying that I see it as a "loophole"; I actually think the program sounds terrific as it is. I was not bashing it, I was just trying to answer your question.

The simple answer is, Schedule A is -- as written -- less competitive (or not competitive), by design. As I also wrote, I have no idea if in practice it really is. It WOULD be interesting to find some statistics on that, especially on whether the program itself HAS done what it was intended to do, which is hire more people with disabilities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ocnjgirl View Post
Also I know you mentioned things such as heart disease, but I really donít think that would qualify someone for disability yet still be allowed to work by a doc. I also donít think Doctor signed these things willy-nilly.
I think you have me mixed up with someone else; I never mentioned heart disease. (The government links might mention it, or another poster might have, but I didn't.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deserterer View Post
agencies can make an appointment without going through the typical competitive process.
Yes, but they do this when managers want to hire a person with disability. That's the whole point, to make it easier to find and hire persons with disabilities. That (in my understanding) is the only time the process is non-competitive.
Yes, exactly. That's what I was trying to say (thought I did say it! ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deserterer View Post
Not all advertised positions are open to persons with disabilities, they have to apply competitively. Even with jobs that are open to persons with disabilities, there is no requirement that a person with disability be hired. So the advantage is there, but its not gigantic.
I just meant that ANY federal job that is non-competitive gives the person applying a gigantic advantage over jobs that ARE competitive. Again, I wasn't begrudging the program or the disabled person who gets the job!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deserterer View Post
I've been following some other forums and encountered some people who are already permanent in the competitive service and have applied under schedule A for years for other positions and never even get an interview. Others are quite turned off by what is essentially a 2 year probation. While they can convert you after two years, or even earlier if the manager recommends it, they aren't likely to do so if you aren't performing well and they aren't required to.

Of course if someone does their job well for 2 years they deserve to be converted.
Completely agree! Again, I wasn't bashing the program -- and I wish you luck!
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