What's a good trade to get into?

[wanderlust76]

Originally Posted by andywire

There is enough material knowledge in the machining trade to cover a typical bachelors degree program... Possibly a masters. Thing is though, most machinists are pigeonholed into specific areas. They do one type of work, or even run one type of machine. In the old days, machinists were trained on every machine and every operation, until they mastered every area of the trade.

Today, companies want the workers dumb, so they can pay them less. The less they know, the less the chances are of the worker running off to their competition. They want these machinists mastering one specific machine, possibly one operation. It's pretty depressing what some of these guys are working for today. What's worse... Some of these guys get so used to their little area of expertise that when the job is no more, they struggle to move on. They literally can't learn because they have not learned in so long.

When I started out, I worked in a union shop where we covered every area. 8000 hours here, there and everywhere. That's the best way to do it. I would have never gotten that chance in a non union shop. Today, the youngins start out as part poking operators for damn near minimum wage. Companies don't teach because they already have the skilled guys needed. Why teach your operator to set up a machine when you already have a set up operator? After all, the kid will simply go apply for a set up operator job for a nice pay raise.

I like this trade, and you can make decent money if your smart and willing to take chances, but there are many pit falls. If someone doesn't like the work, there is absolutely no reason to pursue this trade though. As the babyboomers retire, there will likely be a deficit of skilled workers. Many of us can work nearly unlimited OT if we want it. Can't imagine what it will look like in 10 years.

FWIW... I work in a shop where we're always making "one offs". 75% of the new hires are gone in 2 weeks. Too many production guys who are used to 10,000 part orders. When it comes to receiving one piece of steel to make one part, it's a whole other ball game. Pencils have erasers. Machinists don't have that luxury. How many folks routinely scored 100% on their tests in school? And the young kids we get supplied from the trade schools? Druggies don't make for good machinists.

This was interesting to read and hear your viewpoint on the industry. I had some older family members that were machinists and they did work on some big time projects for NASA and so on. In the end the pay is the name of the game some of the cons you mentioned would be a big problem with me. I feel if the worker is willing to learn and stay with the company they shouldn't be pigeonholed into a low wage and stuck doing the same thing for years on end. What companies don't get is in this day and age is that's what causes people to look for other work. This is why people don't want to get into blue collar work anymore it's not rewarding like it used to be. Like you said..they basically want robots that are programmed to do the same task over and over again for countless hours.

[skinnayyy]

Originally Posted by wanderlust76

This was interesting to read and hear your viewpoint on the industry. I had some older family members that were machinists and they did work on some big time projects for NASA and so on. In the end the pay is the name of the game some of the cons you mentioned would be a big problem with me. I feel if the worker is willing to learn and stay with the company they shouldn't be pigeonholed into a low wage and stuck doing the same thing for years on end. What companies don't get is in this day and age is that's what causes people to look for other work. This is why people don't want to get into blue collar work anymore it's not rewarding like it used to be. Like you said..they basically want robots that are programmed to do the same task over and over again for countless hours.

I just saw this yesterday, and is completely fitting for your post.

[andywire]

Originally Posted by wanderlust76

This was interesting to read and hear your viewpoint on the industry. I had some older family members that were machinists and they did work on some big time projects for NASA and so on. In the end the pay is the name of the game some of the cons you mentioned would be a big problem with me. I feel if the worker is willing to learn and stay with the company they shouldn't be pigeonholed into a low wage and stuck doing the same thing for years on end. What companies don't get is in this day and age is that's what causes people to look for other work. This is why people don't want to get into blue collar work anymore it's not rewarding like it used to be. Like you said..they basically want robots that are programmed to do the same task over and over again for countless hours.

Issue is, there's only so much "good" work to go around. What if one worker is exceptional, learns everything the first time, runs very little scrap... The other guys may not possess all of these attributes. Company figures they should give all the "good" work to the best guy(s), while most of the workers are pigeonholed, and never learn or improve. Works very well for the company's bottom line, and profits are king, right?

Well, it's just not a viable long term strategy though. What it creates is a situation where 90% of the workforce is really good at one thing. 10% is versatile, adaptable, and pretty much stellar. Problem for the companies looking to fill a "good job", all the top notch workers are working, making good money, and not interested in leaving their current job. This is bad news for companies that win large bids that would vastly improve the bottom line, but can't find the workers to meet quotas or even do the job. There has been a noticeable boom in domestic manufacturing after the recession. Thing is, companies were not preparing for this. They weren't training new workers, and many don't have the capacity to handle the influx of work. I'm sure they aren't complaining about the resurgence, but many are kicking themselves for not being able to further capitalize on this opportunity.

This is also why many companies are fretting about the upcoming retirements of the babyboomers. Those guys had thirty years to master their skills. The younger guys didn't get the experience because the companies just fed all of the challenging work to the experienced guys. Meanwhile, the younger guys were busy doing monkey work and sweeping floors for half a decade or more.

Pertaining to your point, I was reading some illustrations covering the industrial revolution, the robber barons and so on. One interesting piece included stories and letters from the workers themselves. One letter was a description from what I assumed was a machinist based on the job he described. He had worked in a manufacturing setting just before the industrial revolution really picked up steam. He said he loved his job before, because every day was different, and he was constantly making new things. Well, that job went bye bye and he ended up in a large plant doing the same thing day in and day out... For 2/3 his previous pay.

Workers are just a commodity in the eye's of corporations, and the economy as a whole. If the company can make bigger profits by locking you into a very limited role for less pay, that's exactly what they will do. What you end up with is a very robotic worker, but that may be all the company requires or wants.

[nicet4]

Originally Posted by andywire

This is also why many companies are fretting about the upcoming retirements of the babyboomers. Those guys had thirty years to master their skills. The younger guys didn't get the experience because the companies just fed all of the challenging work to the experienced guys. Meanwhile, the younger guys were busy doing monkey work and sweeping floors for half a decade or more.

Andy is right on the mark with this and my trade is a perfect example.

NICET is a Division of the National Society of Engineers and what they do is offer certification to a variety of engineering technicians in various fields among them engineering technicians in concrete, asphalt, fire alarms, fire sprinkler designs, fire sprinkler inspections, special hazard protection and various other niche fields that most of you would never hear about unless you heard it from me.

I design fire sprinkler systems and I hold a Level IV NICET certification in that field. I am fortunate that I do because even at age 66 I know if I want a job I can get one and I have no fear on cold calling, just walk in the front door, because I am pretty confident they will interview me.

Not long ago I tracked all the holders of a Level IV certification in my home state and found the average age of a certificate holder was 58.85 years old and that's average. I don't worry about age discrimination.

There isn't a whole lot of us either and to make it worse we're starting to retire and die off to be blunt about it.

But there is precious little training going on because it is so expensive. To obtain a Level IV certificate takes a minimum of 10 years training before being eligible to take the written test which takes three days total. To keep training to a minimum my corner of the industry has invested heavily in technology enabling a design technician to do 3 times the work we did 30 years ago cutting back on the cost of training. Oh, I am not complaining, back when I started someone with experience was fortunate to earn the same mount of money as a union journeyman installer and now, due to decrease in our numbers, we all earn more and happy for it.

There's this job in Spring Valley, California down near San Diego.

fire sprinkler engineer nicet level #4 - Spring Valley California

Company: ACTION FIRE SYSTEMS
Location: Spring Valley, California
Posted On: 01/10/2012
need to hire, experienced AUTOMATIC fire sprinkler engineer
NICET LEVEL #3...AND OR #4...EXPERIENCE ONLY!!!!!!
,MUST HAVE AUTO-CAD, AND NICET CERTIFICATE!!!
CONTACT TIM LOEWER, 619-462-9210

Make no mistake about it, they give a name and phone number because they want to be called.

What they really need is a Level IV for these sorts of projects Project 1, Project 2, Project 3 and to sign off on material such as this out of Santa Clara that specifies on page 2:

Contractor requirements specify that a Civil Engineer has to design the structure racks/shelves),whereas the High-Piled Storage Commodity classification requires that the fire sprinkler layout anddesign shall be completed by a NICET Level IV Certified Sprinkler Contractor (C-16) or a qualified Fire Protection Engineer (C-16 Specialty).

Here's the problem in California, as of November 22, 2013 the national registry listed a total of 56 (1 as retired) Level III certificate holders and 42 Level IV's for a total of 98 (97 Active) living in the state of California. Given the large population this is not a large pool to pick from, face it they can all be snail mailed for less than $50, they will be lucky to get two qualified applicants.

As to age registration numbers are issued consecutively and from the registration number you can calculate the initial date of registration. For Level III add a absolute minimum of 5 years and 10 years for the Level IV. These are theoretical minimums and to be more accurate you can add 10 years and 15 years to each level.

<70000 1982 Minimum age would be late 60's and older
<80000 1990 Minimum age would be mid 60's and older
<90000 1996 Minimum age would be late 50's and older
<1000001999 Minimum age would be early 50's and older
<110000 2007 Minimum age would be 40's and older
<120000 2012 Minimum age would be early mid 30's and older

For privacy I erased the last names of all certificate holders but give their first, middle initial, town they live in, certificate number and level of certification. This is the list of everyone.

David V. Fresno 95842 III
Robert W. Anaheim 105565 III
Michael A. Manhattan Bch 89788 IV
Dan J. Oceanside 80489 III
Michael W. Palmdale 85844 IV
Roger C. Carmichael 73992 IV
Jeffery J. Roseville 93986 IV
James S. Downey 74533 IV
Carl Mission Viejo 91617 IV
Lisa M. Sacramento 91772 III
Steven A. Vista 73726 III
Christopher R. Bakersfield 114502 III
Robert A. San Marcos 94200 III
Jeffery J. Granite Bay 64562 IV
Daniel L. Bakersfield 106133 IV
Ryan D. Stevenson Ranch 105657 III
James E. Elk Grove 87273 III
Ted J. Auburn 75833 IV
Charles F. Moreno Valley 68786 III
Brian D Fullerton 111575 IV
Ricardo A. Fresno 96487 III
Rocci J Gilroy 129503 III
Randall S. Santa Clarita 82004 III
Eugene E. Camarillo 92129 III
Doug R. Westminster 99368 III
Kevin R. Visalia 89938 III
Warde P. Concord 75827 IV
Jerry M. La Habra 111577 IV
Jeffrey T. Pleasanton 78304 III
Los Cobos, Ricardo G. Lincoln 73869 IV
Nicholas A La Mesa 116922 III
Frederick M. Hercules 64570 IV
Lorrie J. San Diego 82324 IV
Marcus T. San Diego 126173 III
Jeffrey S. Tracy 85902 III
John P. Oceanside 103117 III
Bryan J. Scotts Valley 75465 IV
Michael L. Tracy 67323 IV
Stephen T. San Diego 78418 III
Mark T. Colton 65371 III
Francisco Calexico 130914 IV
Charles D. Anaheim 92500 III
J. Patrick Tustin 89968 IV
Richard S. Oakley 94060 IV
Adrian Calexico 129948 III
Jacob C. Kelseyville 120714 III
Patrick M Passadena 125716 III
Daniel A. Palo Alto 64587 III
Aaron J Modesto 126876 III
James A. Monrovia 72740 IV
Mark C. Redondo Beach 111063 III
Donald M. Fullerton 64588 IV
Lloyd D. Lodi 69020 IV
James V. Cottonwood 102171 III Retired
Rick S. San Diego 74705 III
Roy J. Santa Paula 116204 III
Dave A. Arcadia 71262 IV
Tim S. El Cajon 115119 IV
Ed R Fresno 125020 III
Eduardo Calexico 130312 III
Rodney D. Chino Hills 67608 III
Richard L. Fresno 88464 III
Paul A Rancho Cucamonga 134137 II
Wesley A. Tracy 111102 III
Brian R. Fontana 121124 III
Howard A. Grass Valley 77820 IV
Angela K. Roseville 126425 III
Noakes, Gary L. Fremont 66648 III
Derek W. Santee 112174 III
Kevin E. Coarsegold 120797 IV
Bob V. Riverside 94301 IV
Andrew L. San Clemente 101890 I
Eric A. Grass Valley 71151 IV
Charles E. San Diego 72926 III
Harold J Riverside 123796 IV
Larry D. Livermore 64534 IV
Mark A. Monrovia 71841 III
Scott M. Lake Forest 128254 III
George T. Acampo 72571 IV
Cory R Penn Valley 117589 III
Thomas Fair Oaks 65467 IV
Michael K Ventura 131499 III
Thanapong Rancho Cordova 117967 III
Donald R. Roseville 73311 IV
Joel A Roseville 125149 IV
James G. Brentwood 77424 III
Brandon M. Carson 113703 III
Kathryn A. Fair Oaks 69350 IV
John P. Fresno 96641 IV
Himanshu K. Poway 102599 III
Raymond G. Paso Robles 65118 IV
Kenneth W. Escondido 89760 IV
D. Modesto 84294 IV
M. Ventura 96419 III
Acampo 69217 III
Eduardo C Santee 123335 III
Mark A Oceanside 122354 III
Thomas G. Sacramento 100186 III
Glen A. Auburn 91228 IV
Margaret C. Middletown 73742 IV

Long, boring list I know but I wanted to show you that's all there is... the statewide competition and now you know why they want the phone to ring. You call with a Level IV and someone will talk to you. Even if they fill the job they will still talk to you.

What they really want is a Level IV and if you draw a 100 mile radius around Spring Valley pickings get real slim indeed.

I would venture to guess anyone with a five digit number is at least 50 years old and most likely closer to 60. I would also venture a guess anyone with a Level III or IV certification is employed unless they don't want to work, it's just that tight.

You seldom see these jobs advertised because most are filled through networking because our numbers are so small we all know each other or one or two people removed at most.

Every two years I have to attend collect 32 hours CEU's and this year my wife and I are going to Caribe Royale in Lake Buena Vista, FL. It;s a tough job but someone has to do it.

Andy mentioned skills. I have 40 years experience, in a position where experience is 90% of the job, and I am not going to be easy to replace.

Two other related fields where there is no end of available jobs. Inspections and certification in fire alarms. Not talking a low voltage licenses, these are easy to obtain, but Level III certification is not so easy but jobs are plentiful.

There's lots of niche professions out there that most of you don't know they even exist. One of my favorites is a technician certified ACI/Nicet III or IV in concrete and asphalt. Doesn't sound glamorous, doesn't look glamorous when seen up close either, but some of you would be amazed at the money some of these guys make and, more importantly, the job opportunities that exist.