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Our founding fathers knew democracies always fail which is why the United States was founded as a republic.
In a democracy the minority will fall prey under the tyranny of the majority.
Republics often suffer gridlock but gridlock is good. One who values liberty should always be thankful they are not getting all the government they are paying for.
But it is unfortunate many Americans are under the misconception the United States is a democracy which will doom the country. Today far to many people have discovered when they band together as a group they have the ability to vote themselves money from the public treasury.
"When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." -- Benjamin Franklin
So health care is a right? How about food, do I have a right to food? If I have a right to health care and food then it is obvious I have the right to have a roof over my head, right?
If I had free health care as a right, free food as a right and free a roof over my head, if all these things were basic rights guaranteed to me by the government, I would stop working or wouldn't work near as hard as I have most of my life.
I work hard, I have always worked hard so I can live in a nice house, pay for my own health insurance, purchased good food from upscale markets, could afford to own my own airplane and take a few outstanding vacations while affording my family an upper middle class lifestyle. To be able to afford all this I've known lots of 60 hour work weeks and where is it anyone can get the idea those that work less, drink a lot, have drug problems or made some poor choices in life deserve to take the fruits of my labors in order that life can be "fair"? That sort of entitlement mentality nauseates me. No thank you.
As far as giving to charity I regularly give because it is my choice to give. I can also assure you I give to charity far more than than Al Gore or Joe Biden even though I make far less. The truth of the matter is most Americans are a giving people and you would have a tough time finding many middle class families that donated less than those two darlings of the left.
As far as living in a nanny state, similar to England where they search garbage cans for separating recyclables, I doubt that would work here. It's my garbage and I will do what I want with it and if government doesn't like it I'll dump it on the street in front of city hall at 4:00 AM.
235 years ago we kicked one king in the ass and we are fully capable of doing it again as Obama will discover in November.
Yes, you are correct -- it is a constitutional republic, not a democracy. That's the second time I have made that "mental error" in a debate at CD and hopefully it will be the last. For purposes of this discussion this is, I am afraid, known as a "distinction without a difference."
As regards charity -- perhaps giving money to charity makes you feel better about the fact that you live in what is well on its way to being a third world country because of the pure self-interest of people with a mindset just like yours.
The middle class in America is vanishing and America on the decline, just as Tocqueville predicted, and people just like you are helping it to get there.
The middle class in America is vanishing and America on the decline, just as Tocqueville predicted, and people just like you are helping it to get there.
The middle class, of which I am a member, is vanishing because I work hard?
Or is it vanishing because 50% instead of 75% of what I earn goes for taxes? Is that it, the way to fix the middle class is to raise taxes?
The middle class, of which I am a member, is vanishing because I work hard?
Or is it vanishing because 50% instead of 75% of what I earn goes for taxes? Is that it, the way to fix the middle class is to raise taxes?
Are you joking?
The middle class is vanishing because the jobs are no longer there -- they have been shipped overseas -- and people like you don't give a damn about this fact so long as you have what you need.
Like I said to you earlier -- your happiness and sense of identity exist in a vacuum, not in a larger social context. Read my posts again. If you still don't "get it" read Tocqueville. I'm done explaining this to you.
DreamingSpires: This thread has the potential to be very interesting and highly educational. As you've acknowledged, your Ireland case study is hardly an appropriate comparative benchmark against the US. However, the subject is very interesting and I believe worthy of discussion. I have often heard of the supposed social safety net in the EU versus the US but honestly haven't ever seen any hard numbers on the subject. I'm very curious as to how it might stack up.
I have a proposition for you - let us (you, me and all other interested CD contributors) take a look at the real (as real as "official" numbers can be trusted) of the social safety net expenditures within the EU and the US. I can volunteer for the US data (hopefully with lots of assistance), how about you take on the EU side.
Logically we will need to establish some criteria to expedite comparability. A rough estimate of the US 2010 population is around 315 millions, the EU 27 numbers (taken from the EU website) is a bit north of 501 millions, not sure what year basis that number is representing, -- help. I would think that we can use a per capita measurement for general comparability, if that is agreeable. For discussion, may I suggest we look to public expenditures (using US terminology - Federal, state and local) in the following categories:
1) Health care
2) Old age support
3) Disability support, including special needs populations
4) Income support (unemployment insurance, job training, etc.)
5) Food stamps, clothing, housing, utilities (where separate from cash payment assistance)
6) Tax(s) abatement/exclusions (this one will be really difficult to model in the US)
7) US terminology - welfare (AFDC, etc.)
8) Other - to be determined after discussion
What do you say, DS - let's take a go at it. Obviously this will take some time and effort, but I really think it might be interesting.
Giving people hand outs does not encourage them to strive to better their lives, it simply makes them complacent to accept what they are given.
The sheer amount of entitlements in most European nations is staggering, and leaves the minority who work their tails off to pay for the rest of the nation who take holidays and go to the pub while on the dole. If life is that good, what reason do they have to actually do this thing called "work?"
Giving people hand outs does not encourage them to strive to better their lives, it simply makes them complacent to accept what they are given.
The sheer amount of entitlements in most European nations is staggering, and leaves the minority who work their tails off to pay for the rest of the nation who take holidays and go to the pub while on the dole. If life is that good, what reason do they have to actually do this thing called "work?"
No thanks.
Before one can make informed judgements, would it not be useful to compile and examine the available data on the subject? Entitlements in the US are not small change and the distribution thereof is an interesting (to me) discussion, especially in relation to EU practices.
It has been with ironic amusement over the years that I have been unable to avoid often reminding my western friends (think SD, ND, Utah, WY, NM, NV, AZ, to name a few) of their wonderful independence and anti-Federal/Washington attitudes when upon close inspection - per capita Federal expenditures from water projects alone makes the pro-typical "welfare queen" expenditure look like very small change. The issues are many, vastly complex and interesting for informed discussion. Simplistic brickbats are not useful, nor will be given credence; informed discussion is the only coin in this realm. How societies sort out their responses to the extraordinary challenges of the current and future societal issues facing the entire world is worth discussion.
I am neither Republican or Democrat, being a life-long independent politically speaking, though political categorizations don't fit well with me. I am from a very humble economic background and happily joined the ranks of comfortable middle class existence during my working life through dint of education, effort and a large dollop of luck. I am a distinct minority of my generation (I hit the 60 number last month), being one of the really few who enlisted in the Marines and served in combat in Viet Nam in 1969. I never had a draft number, the flag was under fire and all that. The purpose of this disclosure is simply to state my background. My ancestors fled the famines in Ireland in the mid-1800s and sought, and indeed found, a better life. My heritage is from County Mayo, the anthracite coal mines of Pennsylvania, with Molly Maquires in my blood, to find the American dream.
The subject of EU versus US social support functions is a vastly interesting topic and one which bears some discussion and hopefully - clarity. As the EU seeks to bring former Soviet client states into a free and prosperous future, I think it is well worth an informed discussion amongst my fellow CD compatriots. Likewise, the US is certainly grappling with the immense challenges of its current and future social policies. May the discussion begin?
Last edited by Pilgrim21784; 03-11-2010 at 10:19 PM..
DreamingSpires: This thread has the potential to be very interesting and highly educational. As you've acknowledged, your Ireland case study is hardly an appropriate comparative benchmark against the US. However, the subject is very interesting and I believe worthy of discussion. I have often heard of the supposed social safety net in the EU versus the US but honestly haven't ever seen any hard numbers on the subject. I'm very curious as to how it might stack up.
I have a proposition for you - let us (you, me and all other interested CD contributors) take a look at the real (as real as "official" numbers can be trusted) of the social safety net expenditures within the EU and the US. I can volunteer for the US data (hopefully with lots of assistance), how about you take on the EU side.
Logically we will need to establish some criteria to expedite comparability. A rough estimate of the US 2010 population is around 315 millions, the EU 27 numbers (taken from the EU website) is a bit north of 501 millions, not sure what year basis that number is representing, -- help. I would think that we can use a per capita measurement for general comparability, if that is agreeable. For discussion, may I suggest we look to public expenditures (using US terminology - Federal, state and local) in the following categories:
1) Health care
2) Old age support
3) Disability support, including special needs populations
4) Income support (unemployment insurance, job training, etc.)
5) Food stamps, clothing, housing, utilities (where separate from cash payment assistance)
6) Tax(s) abatement/exclusions (this one will be really difficult to model in the US)
7) US terminology - welfare (AFDC, etc.)
8) Other - to be determined after discussion
What do you say, DS - let's take a go at it. Obviously this will take some time and effort, but I really think it might be interesting.
I like this idea -- I will need help on the number side though -- mcb1025 has an economics degree, and could provide valuable input there. More needs to be looked at than just the "raw numbers" though -- there are policy differnces as well. That is my area of interest. PurpleLove and Ariadne22 also share that interest
I won't be around much this weekend, but will give this some thought and get back to you.
Thank you for your service to your country and Semper Fi!
Giving people hand outs does not encourage them to strive to better their lives, it simply makes them complacent to accept what they are given.
The sheer amount of entitlements in most European nations is staggering, and leaves the minority who work their tails off to pay for the rest of the nation who take holidays and go to the pub while on the dole. If life is that good, what reason do they have to actually do this thing called "work?"
No thanks.
Annerk, you are wrong again. In Ireland, for instance, the unemployment rate is currently 12%. Three years ago it was a little over 4% ("full employment"). This means that in 2007, 96% of the working population was "working their tails off." As I'm sure you realise, 96% is the MAJORITY not the MINORITY of the population. Bringing this forward, 88% is also the MAJORITY of the working population.
Before one can make informed judgements, would it not be useful to compile and examine the available data on the subject? Entitlements in the US are not small change and the distribution thereof is an interesting (to me) discussion, especially in relation to EU practices.
It has been with ironic amusement over the years that I have been unable to avoid often reminding my western friends (think SD, ND, Utah, WY, NM, NV, AZ, to name a few) of their wonderful independence and anti-Federal/Washington attitudes when upon close inspection - per capita Federal expenditures from water projects alone makes the pro-typical "welfare queen" expenditure look like very small change. The issues are many, vastly complex and interesting for informed discussion. Simplistic brickbats are not useful, nor will be given credence; informed discussion is the only coin in this realm. How societies sort out their responses to the extraordinary challenges of the current and future societal issues facing the entire world is worth discussion.
I am neither Republican or Democrat, being a life-long independent politically speaking, though political categorizations don't fit well with me. I am from a very humble economic background and happily joined the ranks of comfortable middle class existence during my working life through dint of education, effort and a large dollop of luck. I am a distinct minority of my generation (I hit the 60 number last month), being one of the really few who enlisted in the Marines and served in combat in Viet Nam in 1969. I never had a draft number, the flag was under fire and all that. The purpose of this disclosure is simply to state my background. My ancestors fled the famines in Ireland in the mid-1800s and sought, and indeed found, a better life. My heritage is from County Mayo, the anthracite coal mines of Pennsylvania, with Molly Maquires in my blood, to find the American dream.
The subject of EU versus US social support functions is a vastly interesting topic and one which bears some discussion and hopefully - clarity. As the EU seeks to bring former Soviet client states into a free and prosperous future, I think it is well worth an informed discussion amongst my fellow CD compatriots. Likewise, the US is certainly grappling with the immense challenges of its current and future social policies. May the discussion begin?
In my opinion we give far too many entitlement handouts in the US as well. I'm all for doing away with the majority of them. I believe we have a social responsibility to support those who are truly disabled (mentally retarded for example) but that we've made it far too easy for people to make poor choices and then let the govenment take care of them. If it were up to me, the EIC would be immediately killed, then I'd move on to radcal changes to SSDI/SSI, and go from there. And dont' get me started on the policy of hospitals being required to treat all comers without regard to citizenship or ability to pay if they get Federal money. The level one trauma center in Miami is teetering on insolvency and might have to close--and they give uninsured illegals using their ER as primary care doctors as the #1 cause.
In my opinion, with very few exceptions--ie the mentally retarded and indigent elderly who need an institutional setting--all handouts should be the role of private charities, not the government.
That said, I'd also like to see the majority of pork barrel spending come to a screeching halt. Our government should be in place to provide the military and law enforcement (including animal control and CPS), roads (and I've got no problem with "pay as you use them" toll freeways), public K-12 education, fire and ALS (BLS should be staffed by volunteers and funded by charitable donations when possible), I'm sure I've missed a few things.
Hospitals and nursing homes should all be privatized. Our national parks and forests should be operated solely based on entrance fees and donations. Libraries and the performing arts should be entirely supported by user fees and donations. In fact almost every part of government should be self supporting including the post office, most public works projects, and animal control. With the exception of course of the things I stated above.
Annerk, you are wrong again. In Ireland, for instance, the unemployment rate is currently 12%. Three years ago it was a little over 4% ("full employment"). This means that in 2007, 96% of the working population was "working their tails off." As I'm sure you realise, 96% is the MAJORITY not the MINORITY of the population. Bringing this forward, 88% is also the MAJORITY of the working population.
Let's stick to facts.
I AM sticking to the facts. You are the one selectively omitting them.
From the first post:
"For those who are employed, the minimum wage is around $12 and half of the working population are below the tax threshold (i.e. do not pay income taxes)."
So half the working population (currently 44%) plus the 12% on the dole is 56% not paying taxes. At least where I went to school, that was the MAJORITY.
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