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Exactly.
That says it all.
When my kid cut his hand in the south of France, he walked into a clinic and was stitched up for free.
Here in the States, he could perhaps find a walk-in clinic, but would not even get looked at unless he could show them the money--and lots of it. Clawson, it's good you and your husband are saving your money for parenthood.
You're gonna need it, especially by the time you're in your 50's, paying more and more for health insurance, and looking over your shoulder at the next upcoming ailment that isn't covered.
BINGO!! Clawson seems to think she is untouchable; unfortunately, life has a way of teaching us hard lessons.
...but say you get injured on the job, or have a brain aneurism, or some drunk just T-bones you on your commute home? All that effort -- and insurance -- gone.
What then?
Roark, like Clawson is untouchable. Bad things only happen to other people. Some people choose to view life through rose-colored glasses.
I have a doubt about the soundtrack of Sicko. I would like to know the title/author of the instrumental music which is played during the scene "Escape to Guantanamo" on the movie. I searched on credits and it seems to be some missing music between the "KAISER-WALZER, OP. 437" and "CAN'T SLEEP #2".
The movie in my opinion highlights a social problem we currently have in the United States of America. Basically, we are an extremely self centered society that only cares about issues which affects us as individuals. This problem has existed for a LONG time yet no one cared until this problem started to affect larger sections of our population. I would be really interested to If those people presently struggling with healthcare issues were the same ones who didn’t feel the need to help those a few years back; when they themselves were in a better situation.
I will tell you my story. I am the holder of two degrees with a third on the way (will have my third in two or three weeks).
In 2001 when 9/11 hit and the I.T. bubble burst I was one of thousands who lost their jobs in the I.T. field. I tried to find jobs in my field and then got to the point I would have taken anything. No one in retail would touch me because I have a degree. They figured when I graduate I would leave and go back to my field (well duh). I have heard the argument “well why didn’t you just omit the fact you have a degree”. To that I say, and what should I have told them I was doing for the last 4 or 5 years? This would have left a huge time lapse in my resume and anyone’s resume just graduating from school. During my time being laid off I came down with a sinus infection and had to go to the hospital. Ended up with 400 dollar hospital bill I couldn't pay. Luckily a year passed since I lost my I.T. job (I was working as a substitute teacher at this time) which means my income tax for the previous year was low. So the government paid for me. But while applying for this service a bunch of us waiting in the office to fill out our paper work started talking. One lady had a yacht wielding business. After 9/11 people stopped buying boats and she ended up losing her business. Because of stress she had a heart attack and that my friends cost her 35,000 dollars. She couldn't afford health care so she ended up applying for the government assistance. Problem is; she made to much the previous year so she wasn't going to be approved.
Something that is essential for being able to live (life and death) like food, clothing, shelter and healthcare, I am afraid should be free or subsidized in some form. Well let me back track and say if a person can't feed themselves or afford clothing and shelter then that should be provided for them by the government. Healthcare I feel though should be free, just like education (k through 12), Library, Postal Service, Police, Fire Department etc.
For a country to be great, that country must provide an excellent standard of living *quality of life* for its people. As far as I can tell, our country while nice has missed the mark on this one. I am not saying the system will be perfect but who ever thinks it will be or uses perfection as an argument should really stop and evaluate their views on life. We are humans and as such make mistakes and have many imperfections. Even capitalism is imperfect, hell look at the housing market to prove that one.
I have friends in London who say that the healthcare isn't that great and they think America has a better healthcare system. Well ours MIGHT be better as far as research or available technology (again don’t know this to be true or not), however when a majority of the people can’t afford it what does it matter how great it is? Ferrari might be the best sports car in the world but it means nothing to me as I can't afford one.
Michael Moore actually has a movement now that is trying to get a universal healthcare system established here. However he is going to be extremely disappointed as it will NEVER happen unless something extremely drastic happens in this country. The thing is, we are a very me-centric, and I don't care about the next man sort of mentality based society.
We are all familiar with the usual arguments; the “people will abuse the healthcare system” (yeah, cause everyone just loves going to the doctor and spending time in waiting rooms). The other argument thrown about is “why should my tax dollars go to universal healthcare, I can afford my own”. Again back to the me, me, me mentality. That or the all to absurd, “we will be introducing socialism or communism into the country” (well I guess then grade school, social security, medicare and the like means we already have communism or socialism here).
I am sure some will also argue that the mess the government has made of social security just shows such a system wouldn’t work. I say to them, it’s not that the government has made a mess of social security; it’s that we as a nation have allowed them to do so. Look at France, if that government gets out of line, those people take to the street and bring the country to a screeching halt until things get right. Americans would never do that because we are too busy playing PS3 or watching the sopranos to care. If we got politically involved and showed this government we are no longer having it, then guess what, things would run a heck of a lot better. But again this will never happen because we are way to self centered as a nation.
Civility is based on how you deal with others and to be so apathetic to your fellow man is downright uncivilized.
The movie in my opinion highlights a social problem we currently have in the United States of America. Basically, we are an extremely self centered society that only cares about issues which affects us as individuals. This problem has existed for a LONG time yet no one cared until this problem started to affect larger sections of our population. I would be really interested to If those people presently struggling with healthcare issues were the same ones who didn’t feel the need to help those a few years back; when they themselves were in a better situation.
I will tell you my story. I am the holder of two degrees with a third on the way (will have my third in two or three weeks).
In 2001 when 9/11 hit and the I.T. bubble burst I was one of thousands who lost their jobs in the I.T. field. I tried to find jobs in my field and then got to the point I would have taken anything. No one in retail would touch me because I have a degree. They figured when I graduate I would leave and go back to my field (well duh). I have heard the argument “well why didn’t you just omit the fact you have a degree”. To that I say, and what should I have told them I was doing for the last 4 or 5 years? This would have left a huge time lapse in my resume and anyone’s resume just graduating from school. During my time being laid off I came down with a sinus infection and had to go to the hospital. Ended up with 400 dollar hospital bill I couldn't pay. Luckily a year passed since I lost my I.T. job (I was working as a substitute teacher at this time) which means my income tax for the previous year was low. So the government paid for me. But while applying for this service a bunch of us waiting in the office to fill out our paper work started talking. One lady had a yacht wielding business. After 9/11 people stopped buying boats and she ended up losing her business. Because of stress she had a heart attack and that my friends cost her 35,000 dollars. She couldn't afford health care so she ended up applying for the government assistance. Problem is; she made to much the previous year so she wasn't going to be approved.
Something that is essential for being able to live (life and death) like food, clothing, shelter and healthcare, I am afraid should be free or subsidized in some form. Well let me back track and say if a person can't feed themselves or afford clothing and shelter then that should be provided for them by the government. Healthcare I feel though should be free, just like education (k through 12), Library, Postal Service, Police, Fire Department etc.
For a country to be great, that country must provide an excellent standard of living *quality of life* for its people. As far as I can tell, our country while nice has missed the mark on this one. I am not saying the system will be perfect but who ever thinks it will be or uses perfection as an argument should really stop and evaluate their views on life. We are humans and as such make mistakes and have many imperfections. Even capitalism is imperfect, hell look at the housing market to prove that one.
I have friends in London who say that the healthcare isn't that great and they think America has a better healthcare system. Well ours MIGHT be better as far as research or available technology (again don’t know this to be true or not), however when a majority of the people can’t afford it what does it matter how great it is? Ferrari might be the best sports car in the world but it means nothing to me as I can't afford one.
Michael Moore actually has a movement now that is trying to get a universal healthcare system established here. However he is going to be extremely disappointed as it will NEVER happen unless something extremely drastic happens in this country. The thing is, we are a very me-centric, and I don't care about the next man sort of mentality based society.
We are all familiar with the usual arguments; the “people will abuse the healthcare system” (yeah, cause everyone just loves going to the doctor and spending time in waiting rooms). The other argument thrown about is “why should my tax dollars go to universal healthcare, I can afford my own”. Again back to the me, me, me mentality. That or the all to absurd, “we will be introducing socialism or communism into the country” (well I guess then grade school, social security, medicare and the like means we already have communism or socialism here).
I am sure some will also argue that the mess the government has made of social security just shows such a system wouldn’t work. I say to them, it’s not that the government has made a mess of social security; it’s that we as a nation have allowed them to do so. Look at France, if that government gets out of line, those people take to the street and bring the country to a screeching halt until things get right. Americans would never do that because we are too busy playing PS3 or watching the sopranos to care. If we got politically involved and showed this government we are no longer having it, then guess what, things would run a heck of a lot better. But again this will never happen because we are way to self centered as a nation.
Civility is based on how you deal with others and to be so apathetic to your fellow man is downright uncivilized.
One of the reasons why I left America in the first place -- couldn't stand the "ME ME ME ME ME" attitude, the greed and the sheer hypocrisy. Health care in particular is one issue I feel VERY strongly about and I find the attitude of many Americans to be sickening and in some cases, downright evil.
My opinions of many Americans is that they simply don't care, until it happens to them. So no wonder universal healthcare isn't a popular notion - it means the greedy b*stards might have to pay a little more tax for those less fortunate (a concept the greedy b*stards are unable to accept). Funny thing is, major health care reform in the United States might actually save them money and the safety net would be there for all.
When I lived in America, I was literally terrified of the propspect of getting sick. I rarely went to the doctor and I actually struggled to find a decent doctor that I could trust. Hospitals...well they're just billing establishments.
You're right - America has some of the best hospitals on earth and the highest paid medical professionals, but for what? If the majority of the population can't afford it, it's pretty much pointless. As for medical research, I understand that pharmaceutical corporations spend much of their profits on crap like advertising and marketing.
Individualists are the problem, not the poor and the sick. They are the ones holding your country back and turning your society into a society that will be just like Brazil (extreme rich and extreme poor, no middle class). That's what they're trying to achieve and hopefully, Americans will realise this and push for a change in politics and most importantly, in attitudes towards your fellow man. I got so tired of hearing their crap to be honest (individualists, far right Republics, Social Darwinists, etc). Their comments make me sick, even on this forum. Not only are they rich (which is fine), but they seem hell-bent on making sure that those in the gutter stay in the gutter and even die from lack of affordable health care. I am not making this up - the evidence is right here in this group, if you care to read it all.
But keep refusing socialised medicine and keep allowing corporations (insurance companies, hospitals and the rest of them) rob you blind and keep believing that the system you have somehow represents freedom. All I can say is that as much as I despise right-wing individualists, I really wouldn't wish illness on any of you (or anyone for that matter), so I hope you don't find out about how flawed, corrupt and wrong your system is when it's too late, i.e. when you get sick and when your precious insurance company find a way to not pay for your treatment, resulting in you having to sell every damn thing you own.
The systems in Europe aren't perfect, but you don't see many examples of Europeans left destitute by a health care system that has let them down and financially raped them. You can sit there and criticise Europe all you like, but morally, it doesn't take a genius to see that the European countries at least have it right on a moral and social level. But keep paying into your greedy, evil system---the CEOs of insurance companies must be grateful for all of your hard-earned cash. Hell, I'd rather pay tax than pay into a system that does nothing but feed the greedy. If I don't like the way my govermnent allocates funds to health care (because that's generally all they do, as opposed to "control"), I'll just go ahead and bloody well vote for someone else.
America = great country, unless you're sick (or poor).
Last edited by Corkonian; 12-02-2007 at 05:03 PM..
One of the reasons why I left America in the first place -- couldn't stand the "ME ME ME ME ME" attitude, the greed and the sheer hypocrisy. Health care in particular is one issue I feel VERY strongly about and I find the attitude of many Americans to be sickening and in some cases, downright evil.
My opinions of many Americans is that they simply don't care, until it happens to them. So no wonder universal healthcare isn't a popular notion - it means the greedy b*stards might have to pay a little more tax for those less fortunate (a concept the greedy b*stards are unable to accept). Funny thing is, major health care reform in the United States might actually save them money and the safety net would be there for all.
When I lived in America, I was literally terrified of the propspect of getting sick. I rarely went to the doctor and I actually struggled to find a decent doctor that I could trust. Hospitals...well they're just billing establishments.
You're right - America has some of the best hospitals on earth and the highest paid medical professionals, but for what? If the majority of the population can't afford it, it's pretty much pointless. As for medical research, I understand that pharmaceutical corporations spend much of their profits on crap like advertising and marketing.
Individualists are the problem, not the poor and the sick. They are the ones holding your country back and turning your society into a society that will be just like Brazil (extreme rich and extreme poor, no middle class). That's what they're trying to achieve and hopefully, Americans will realise this and push for a change in politics and most importantly, in attitudes towards your fellow man. I got so tired of hearing their crap to be honest (individualists, far right Republics, Social Darwinists, etc). Their comments make me sick, even on this forum. Not only are they rich (which is fine), but they seem hell-bent on making sure that those in the gutter stay in the gutter and even die from lack of affordable health care. I am not making this up - the evidence is right here in this group, if you care to read it all.
But keep refusing socialised medicine and keep allowing corporations (insurance companies, hospitals and the rest of them) rob you blind and keep believing that the system you have somehow represents freedom. All I can say is that as much as I despise right-wing individualists, I really wouldn't wish illness on any of you (or anyone for that matter), so I hope you don't find out about how flawed, corrupt and wrong your system is when it's too late, i.e. when you get sick and when your precious insurance company find a way to not pay for your treatment, resulting in you having to sell every damn thing you own.
The systems in Europe aren't perfect, but you don't see many examples of Europeans left destitute by a health care system that has let them down and financially raped them. You can sit there and criticise Europe all you like, but morally, it doesn't take a genius to see that the European countries at least have it right on a moral and social level. But keep paying into your greedy, evil system---the CEOs of insurance companies must be grateful for all of your hard-earned cash. Hell, I'd rather pay tax than pay into a system that does nothing but feed the greedy. If I don't like the way my govermnent allocates funds to health care (because that's generally all they do, as opposed to "control"), I'll just go ahead and bloody well vote for someone else.
America = great country, unless you're sick (or poor).
You said much better than I could have. I have had this argument over and over again but it seems some people are just so indoctrinated about the evils of universal healthcare and a good social net that they refuse to see what's right in front of them..
For goodness sake even European right-wing governments such as France, Germany and Austria would never dream of getting rid of it. It is against everything a civilised society should stand for.
Compassion, empathy, and looking after the most vulnerable , be they sick, elderly, handicapped, homeless etc...
If anyone has SEEN this movie (and not just read about it or have an opinion on Michael Moore or anything in general about America) I would like to know your perspective---this movie is about the American health care system and he goes to Canada, France, England, and Cuba to get information from drs/hospital personnel/American residents living in France and England as to their experiences with the system in each contry....
It probably has not been released overseas since it was only released in US Friday....but there may be advanced screenings in some places...
basically I wondered if anyone could tell me the rate of income tax that people in England, Canada, and France pay--especially the percentage that goes to supplement the national health care...
is the health care and support system as well liked and appreciated by the citizens as Moore portrays it?
in one word NO.
moore has a way of finding ONLY ppl to support his theories/ideas- selective with his questions etc.
my brother is a doc in the english nhs. he disagrees, and appreciates the american health system better. with NHS there is a backlog of surgeries that can range from a few weeks to a year +. my brother says the running 'joke' is that while you have a curable condition, you can still die waiting for the operation.
moore has a way of finding ONLY ppl to support his theories/ideas- selective with his questions etc.
my brother is a doc in the english nhs. he disagrees, and appreciates the american health system better. with NHS there is a backlog of surgeries that can range from a few weeks to a year +. my brother says the running 'joke' is that while you have a curable condition, you can still die waiting for the operation.
So your brother is a liar, I'm sorry about that, but I cannot say something else.Maybe your borther would like to have more money... I don't know but what he said is false. I lived in London, and what can I say about their healthcare (I'm french) is more you are sick and faster you have your treatment. Actually, I suspect you to don't have never put a foot on the english soil, it is not possible in another way ! Have you already seen England ! Just once ? Here, I'm very serious.
This argument which tends to prove how long it is to be treated in the socialized medicine is a fake one, and one used by the republican in the US to push the people to don't accept NHS. Unfortunaly it's a fake.... It's very hard to prove your claim about Canada and IMO it's harder to prove what you say about UK. The english NHS has other problems whose have been underlined by another poster here in this thread.
So your brother is a liar, I'm sorry about that, but I cannot say something else.Maybe your borther would like to have more money... I don't know but what he said is false. I lived in London, and what can I say about their healthcare (I'm french) is more you are sick and faster you have your treatment. Actually, I suspect you to don't have never put a foot on the english soil, it is not possible in another way ! Have you already seen England ! Just once ? Here, I'm very serious.
This argument which tends to prove how long it is to be treated in the socialized medicine is a fake one, and one used by the republican in the US to push the people to don't accept NHS. Unfortunaly it's a fake.... It's very hard to prove your claim about Canada and IMO it's harder to prove what you say about UK. The english NHS has other problems whose have been underlined by another poster here in this thread.
lol. he's been a doctor there (as is his fiance) for the past (at least) 10 yrs - he was born/raised/schooled there - you're going to tell me he's a liar?
is that why the NHS has new directives to cut down on patient time/give them LESS care? you may have seen only one side of the uk health system, you were there for a year- you were in the nhs for what? maybe an accumulated time of 7days? he's there day in/day out, and if he says there's a problem, there's a problem.
perfect example:
my father had to get a CT scan done along with another type of scanning done for his stomach 'pains'. in the UK, there's less hospitals/less specialized equipment. since my father was not in a life threatening situation- it was only minor pain- my brother said he would've had to wait 6mo's to a year to get the appt to get into the specialized scanning machines.
being that my father lives in the US and has health insurance here, he was able to get scanned within 2 weeks, and luckily they found a life threatening condition at an early stage...and were able to fix it in time.
yes. it's based on urgency when/if someone can see a specialist in a decent amt of time, but certain things that may not be life threatening NOW may turn life threatening LATER....and if not treated immediately, means more issues later than if treated immediately.
...
sorry, but ppl can b/s all they want. i'd rather speak to professionals on the front lines rather than someone who's 'used' the service periodically.
i guess what i'm saying is that a soldier in iraq on the front lines has better insight than a reporter who's escorted around the front lines once a month.
get the idea?
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Harmony
