America the new Roman empire? (to live, price, military)

[hello-world]

Hi.

In reading many of the posts here, and in reading the newspaper and other sources any more, it seems as though there might be growing concensus that the United States might be becoming far too like the many empires do before they fall. Over-reaching might or hubris? Blind to any admission of fault? Overly hedonistic?

So, I ask you all: Does it seem possible the US is aptly described as just another empire? If so, how? How do you see that playing out for better or for worse? And how better can we ensure that the United States plays a role of the most value to us all, itself included...rather than that of another empire bound to fall?

[hew2a]

That's deep. After watching the series ROME on HBO, I see so many similarities between the Roman Empire and the US. I have also been studying empires for a while and just looking at the society I live in and the politics around it.

I personally feel it's not a Roman thing or an American thing. It's a people and power thing. People are just corrupt by nature. I am a Christian. I believe that there are really only three sins that we are tempted with (The Pride of Life, The Lust of the Eye, and The Lust of the Flesh). All sins/evils/whatever can be categorized into one of these three.

Do I think America is more corrupt than anywhere else. No. I mean hedonism exist everywhere...some just may not have access to it, but does that mean it doesn't exist in them? Many people move here so they can access it. Many places in the United States have very family-oriented areas where people strive to live very moral lives. But that can be found in Germany, Brazil, China, Russia, etc. Just as hedonism can.

I think America catches a lot of flack because, at the moment, we are one of the (if not the) wealthiest nations on the planet. In Luke 12:48, Jesus tells the parable of the three servants who were each given five talents. He says this at the end "To whom much is given, much is required". America does have abundance. We have a duty to help those in need...yes there are times when we overstep. Greedy politicians, corporate business interests, etc. Many of the American people aren't aware of these agendas. And don't agree with them. But these agendas support many decisions our law and
decision makers make. It goes on in other countries as well, America just gets magnified because all the countries are looking at us. I mean, people are so quick to paint the US bad, but we do a lot of good also. But then again, that's the human nature...how soon we forget.

[BlueWillowPlate]

Yeah, people have been saying this for a several years now.
I see some similarities, especially when you look at the secrecy and power-grabbing in the current administration.
And which direction is America's trajectory?
OTHO, the Roman Empire lasted somewhere around a thousand years.
Then, we Americans were always in a hurry, weren't we?

[hello-world]

Originally Posted by cil

Yeah, people have been saying this for a several years now.
I see some similarities, especially when you look at the secrecy and power-grabbing in the current administration.
And which direction is America's trajectory?
OTHO, the Roman Empire lasted somewhere around a thousand years.
Then, we Americans were always in a hurry, weren't we?

good point about the power grabs (saying the VP office isn't executive OR legislative so exempt from some of the information controls other agencies are not exempt from, i.e., able to control info as it will kinds of things).

i guess the central question i'm wondering about has to do with:

- how specifically could the US be falling, if it is falling?
- how might it if it is imminent but not happening yet?
- what should people be aware of to prevent such a total fall?
- how can america better act on a global stage toward global and, so, it's own interest?

[hew2a]

Originally Posted by hello-world

i guess the central question i'm wondering about has to do with:

- how specifically could the US be falling, if it is falling?
- how might it if it is imminent but not happening yet?
- what should people be aware of to prevent such a total fall?
- how can america better act on a global stage toward global and, so, it's own interest?

In my opinion, of course.

- how specifically could the US be falling, if it is falling?

I remember studying in Philosophy that the Roman Empire fell when the people became so consumed with chasing after pleasures and being entertained that they failed to take proper notice to the corruption going on in the Senate and amongst others in power. That is surely the US. I mean, we are nothing compared to the WWII generation. And I fear for this new GenY generation. They are so consmed with MTV that it's scary. Voting turn-out should be dramatically higher than they are when you look at the US population. There are divides amongst racial groups, let alone the gap between the rich and the poor. The middle class will soon be non-existant. And that's what this country's built on.

- how might it if it is imminent but not happening yet?

Again, these are my opinions. I pray it doesn't happen, but I believe if we suffer another major terrorist attack and another natural disaster the magnitude of Katrina (that practically wiped out an entire major city by the way) our economy will be ruined. Iraq is costing us billions a day, and if amnesty is given to illegal immigrants using the bill that is currently drawn up, I don't believe our economy will be able ot hold up under the weight.

- what should people be aware of to prevent such a total fall?

As a Christian, I think people need to repent and get their lives right. Everything else will fall into place. But from a more secular standpoint, we need to Turn off the CSI and all this other "Crap" that's taking our attention off important issues. Seriously pay attention to who we're putting into office. Not just vote Democrat because we hate Bush and his Administration so much. Understand that we are at war with extreme Islam. And that pulling out of Iraq will not make them leave us alone. They are bent on world conquest. Realize that the laws we have in place are there for a reason. If people wish to be US citizens, by all means, you're welcome here, but it must be done legally. Just absorbing hundreds of thousands of people at one time is national suicide. Last but not least, go get our children! They are the future. If all they care about is sex, video games, loud music, drinking, and drugs...there IS no hope for the United States of America.

- how can america better act on a global stage toward global and, so, it's own interest?

One thing I loved about the Clinton presidency is he was a master at diplomacy. I remember it seemed as if Clinton was always off to some country to speak with their King, Prime Minister, President, whatever. He was the first US President to make a trip to Africa! That's the key. We can't have this "Go it alone mentality". It doesn't work. Diplomacy is the key. Next, we have to realize that people are going to try us. We have to not be afraid to use our military if we have to. Americans have to understand that soldiers die. I hate it...I really do...but that's just the truth of military, battle, and war. I know the Iraq war is a whole other topic...I'm not talking specifically about that. I speaking of the weakness in American (which our enemies see) that we can't take casualties. England is beginning to feel the after effects of this weakness after giving in to Iran when their sailors were captured.

BUt honestly, as long as America is "The Superpower", people are going to hate us. It doesn't matter what we do. The simple fact that we have the power is agression is some people's eyes.

Again, these are my opinions. Some may agree/disagree. This is just what I see.

[hello-world]

Originally Posted by hew2a

In my opinion, of course.

- how specifically could the US be falling, if it is falling?

I remember studying in Philosophy that the Roman Empire fell when the people became so consumed with chasing after pleasures and being entertained that they failed to take proper notice to the corruption going on in the Senate and amongst others in power. That is surely the US. I mean, we are nothing compared to the WWII generation. And I fear for this new GenY generation. They are so consmed with MTV that it's scary. Voting turn-out should be dramatically higher than they are when you look at the US population. There are divides amongst racial groups, let alone the gap between the rich and the poor. The middle class will soon be non-existant. And that's what this country's built on.

- how might it if it is imminent but not happening yet?

Again, these are my opinions. I pray it doesn't happen, but I believe if we suffer another major terrorist attack and another natural disaster the magnitude of Katrina (that practically wiped out an entire major city by the way) our economy will be ruined. Iraq is costing us billions a day, and if amnesty is given to illegal immigrants using the bill that is currently drawn up, I don't believe our economy will be able ot hold up under the weight.

- what should people be aware of to prevent such a total fall?

As a Christian, I think people need to repent and get their lives right. Everything else will fall into place. But from a more secular standpoint, we need to Turn off the CSI and all this other "Crap" that's taking our attention off important issues. Seriously pay attention to who we're putting into office. Not just vote Democrat because we hate Bush and his Administration so much. Understand that we are at war with extreme Islam. And that pulling out of Iraq will not make them leave us alone. They are bent on world conquest. Realize that the laws we have in place are there for a reason. If people wish to be US citizens, by all means, you're welcome here, but it must be done legally. Just absorbing hundreds of thousands of people at one time is national suicide. Last but not least, go get our children! They are the future. If all they care about is sex, video games, loud music, drinking, and drugs...there IS no hope for the United States of America.

- how can america better act on a global stage toward global and, so, it's own interest?

One thing I loved about the Clinton presidency is he was a master at diplomacy. I remember it seemed as if Clinton was always off to some country to speak with their King, Prime Minister, President, whatever. He was the first US President to make a trip to Africa! That's the key. We can't have this "Go it alone mentality". It doesn't work. Diplomacy is the key. Next, we have to realize that people are going to try us. We have to not be afraid to use our military if we have to. Americans have to understand that soldiers die. I hate it...I really do...but that's just the truth of military, battle, and war. I know the Iraq war is a whole other topic...I'm not talking specifically about that. I speaking of the weakness in American (which our enemies see) that we can't take casualties. England is beginning to feel the after effects of this weakness after giving in to Iran when their sailors were captured.

BUt honestly, as long as America is "The Superpower", people are going to hate us. It doesn't matter what we do. The simple fact that we have the power is agression is some people's eyes.

Again, these are my opinions. Some may agree/disagree. This is just what I see.

i agree with much of what you have to say. trash media? self absorption? going it alone? power and how it's obtained? perceptions thereof? i'd be really interested to hear other opinions on all this.

[burdell]

Originally Posted by hello-world

i agree with much of what you have to say. trash media? self absorption? going it alone? power and how it's obtained? perceptions thereof? i'd be really interested to hear other opinions on all this.

I think unless there's a radical change in the direction the US is headed that a hundred years from now it will not be a pretty sight. We may end up as nothing more than a vast outlet mall for the ouput of other countries.

[Mooseketeer]

Originally Posted by burdell

I think unless there's a radical change in the direction the US is headed that a hundred years from now it will not be a pretty sight. We may end up as nothing more than a vast outlet mall for the ouput of other countries.

I agree though sadly I fear pretty much all industrialized countries in the world are heading the same way. I think the incredibly superficial appeal of money and "me, me, me" mentality is spreading even to the majority world ( third world and developing countries). This is the price to pay for multinationals with no interest in anything but as quick and huge a profit as possible and we are pretty much all to blame as most of us have bought into that kind of lifestyle where conspicuous consumption is seen as the success our lives is to be based on. America has taken the lead and shown the world the way and we are all heading towards self-destruction as far as I am concerned.

The pursuit of happiness nowadays seem to involve a selfish lifestyle, where all is just about convenience, things being cheap ( to us , but who cares who suffers to make the junk we all "need") and our own selfish pleasures. This is hardly a sustainable lifestyle .

The Roman Empire is such a good analogy, a decadent Empire under "attack" from hordes of Barbarians threatening the very fabric of its existence, a corrupt ruling class with only self interest at heart trying to keep face by attacking people, left, right and centre . Rome took a thousand years to fall but America is so much more precocious ... You guys have had such a quick rise to power and accomplished so much in such a short time. I think it was inevitable in a way that problems would arise. The Old Geezers of Europe have their own huge problems but the US have such a unique brand of culture and such a different approach to Imperialism , too much, too big, too soon I think.

[hello-world]

Originally Posted by Mooseketeer

I agree though sadly I fear pretty much all industrialized countries in the world are heading the same way. I think the incredibly superficial appeal of money and "me, me, me" mentality is spreading even to the majority world ( third world and developing countries). This is the price to pay for multinationals with no interest in anything but as quick and huge a profit as possible and we are pretty much all to blame as most of us have bought into that kind of lifestyle where conspicuous consumption is seen as the success our lives is to be based on. America has taken the lead and shown the world the way and we are all heading towards self-destruction as far as I am concerned.

The pursuit of happiness nowadays seem to involve a selfish lifestyle, where all is just about convenience, things being cheap ( to us , but who cares who suffers to make the junk we all "need") and our own selfish pleasures. This is hardly a sustainable lifestyle .

The Roman Empire is such a good analogy, a decadent Empire under "attack" from hordes of Barbarians threatening the very fabric of its existence, a corrupt ruling class with only self interest at heart trying to keep face by attacking people, left, right and centre . Rome took a thousand years to fall but America is so much more precocious ... You guys have had such a quick rise to power and accomplished so much in such a short time. I think it was inevitable in a way that problems would arise. The Old Geezers of Europe have their own huge problems but the US have such a unique brand of culture and such a different approach to Imperialism , too much, too big, too soon I think.

thanks for your insightful comments. the "too much, too big, too soon" might be an underlying thread of the fabric of all this. also seems like a fitting image - the vast outlet mall for consumption of more more more of others' products. and let's not forget some of the other supposed notches in the fracturing of the roman empire (in my limited understanding of it - i hope some actual historians, sociologists, etc. chime in to set me straight...).

here's an interesting (to me, at least! note some of the parallels...) wikipedia article:

Decline of the Roman Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

pretty interesting to surf around (wikipedia even) some of the other empires (byzantine, ottoman, japanese, chinese dynasties, british...) and their trajectories...

and if you're really feeling like you have too much overly upbeat time on your hands:
Societal collapse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... a chuckle-inducing (i'm kidding, of course) excerpt: "Societal collapse is often linked to a shift to sedentarism. This social organization eventually leads to the depletion of important non-renewable or only slowly renewing resources (in most cases) (see sustainability). Sedentarism enables a gross expansion of the society and its social institutions. Long distance trade, domestication of flora and fauna, increase in task specialization as well as the stratification of society are the most salient features of a sedentary society. Sedentary societies are not self limiting and often come to over use and dominate that land on which they exist. As population grows diminishing returns of various foodstuffs begin to threaten social complexity." how about that?

[GreggB]

Originally Posted by burdell

I think unless there's a radical change in the direction the US is headed that a hundred years from now it will not be a pretty sight. We may end up as nothing more than a vast outlet mall for the ouput of other countries.

We already are a vast outlet mall for Mexico.