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Old 04-02-2011, 07:18 AM
 
37,315 posts, read 59,626,799 times
Reputation: 25335

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Official: Radioactive water leaking into Pacific through crack in concrete - CNN.com

a day late--a yen short--and people's lives are the price for inactive management of this world crisis--
the Japanese social framework is not set up to deal with a crisis like this--
too deferential to the powers in place, too reluctant to call a spade a spade--or a nuclear debacle the danger it is--

The government is moving WAY too slowly and the nuclear power community should have been called in immediately--
75% of the damage (or more) from this plant's failures are going to be laid at HUMAN error--

even building the plant to a lower spec based on false assumtions of earthquake/tsunami strength was human error--so you could say that ALL of these problems have developed from false assumtions and weak management from construction foward....

the TEPCO authorities need to be held accountable for the long-term consequences of this disaster--and I mean prison time...
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Old 04-02-2011, 09:10 AM
 
614 posts, read 3,200,850 times
Reputation: 300
I never thought nuclear power was so risky (I mean I always knew that when it goes wrong it goes REALLY wrong) but after this, I hope that more people begin to see that it is not a source of energy we should be relying on or placing more importance on as time goes on..
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Old 04-02-2011, 10:00 PM
 
599 posts, read 5,727,603 times
Reputation: 1273
Quote:
Originally Posted by loves2read View Post
The government is moving WAY too slowly and the nuclear power community should have been called in immediately--
75% of the damage (or more) from this plant's failures are going to be laid at HUMAN error--

even building the plant to a lower spec based on false assumtions of earthquake/tsunami strength was human error--so you could say that ALL of these problems have developed from false assumtions and weak management from construction foward....
Loves2read: I do not know your background, but if you - like myself - have a background in human factors, then you also know that 80% or more of all failures can be traced to human actions, i.e. human errors. This is nothing unique to Japan. If you do know human factors you also know that blaming human errors won't do you any good without determining the performance shaping factors that had the largest impact on the situation(s) leading to what's currently going on in Japan.

If you also have a background in the nuclear industry you know that all nuclear plants (and all other industries) are build on assumptions. These assumptions can be more or less conservative, but they will never be anything else than assumptions. Since it is humans that make these assumptions the latent errors here can be claimed to be due to humans. It is also humans that build the systems, the plant, that operates the plant, and that conducts maintenance. You have management systems that are developed by humans and run by humans. You have a (safety) culture and attitudes that are based on humans and their behavior.

Blame human error as much as you want, however "to err is human" and as long as we have humans involved in the cradle to grave process there will always be risk of human errors. To me - as a human factors specialist in the nuke industry - I personally think it will take much more detailed analyses before we can determine what really did go wrong and why.
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Old 04-03-2011, 01:28 PM
 
37,315 posts, read 59,626,799 times
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I don't have a background in nuclear power nor in "human factor specialty"
but I know when companies fumble the ball the tendency is overwhelmingly to cover up any human errors from the get-go vs reveal any weakness--
the fact that the laws protect TEPCO from damages don't do anything to make them reveal problems sooner--because the Japanese culture (more than most) is totally against informing against the company or superiors--
and TEPCO has been more remiss in taking blame for these events--the head of the company has made himself scarce from the tsunami/earthquake--

if you find out that HUMAN ERROR is not the main ingredient in this debacle--be sure to post that--
for me--I feel sure that even after a year the full range of mistakes will not be revealed--
AND if you notice all news stories point to the reality that this situation is NOT under control and is getting worse by the day--
in fact I think they will likely NOT be able to resolve some of the issues with the radiation that is endangering Japan and its peoples--
this is a holocaust of a different order than Chernobyl--which came about for different reason certainly--and which is still endangering the countryside and peoples around it--
the ONLY saving grace there is that it was so isolated from population zones or geological zones leaching into ground water or other features that would take the radiation to larger area

that is not the case with Japan--
these reactors are located fairly close to Tokyo and the ground water in Japan is easily accessible--very fluid--not to be ironic--
so if one of these reactors has a breach that is leaking into the ground water table--there is big danger to ALL of Japan basically--not just the immediate area
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Old 04-03-2011, 04:25 PM
 
Location: Florida
745 posts, read 1,644,257 times
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It looks to me like the fooled around much too long.
Was this deliberate?
Certainly they knew they had a serious situation on their hands.
And certainly they knew that all that Water they were pouring on it was going to come out Radioactive.
Human Error? Big time!
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Old 04-03-2011, 06:08 PM
 
599 posts, read 5,727,603 times
Reputation: 1273
I didn't mean to say that it was not one or many human failures leading to the accident. However, claiming human error as one of the main contributing factors will not be enough. One have to look into what human error happened and why. Humans do not generally make errors on random. There are usually a few factors influencing the actions human make. The things that validate or make the action make sense to the human, or contextual factors such as workload and fatigue that influence the behavior of the human. The point I was trying to make is that in order to determine the main cause behind what happened in Japan - and even more importantly prevent it from happening again - we need to identify these contributing factors.

Claiming that human error is one of the main causes is easy, however it is really hard to reduce the risk of re-occurrence of the human error without knowing what caused it.

Identifying the cause for the human error will also help people that have a strong urge to blame someone to find the right organization or person to blame.
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Old 04-04-2011, 08:07 AM
 
37,315 posts, read 59,626,799 times
Reputation: 25335
my point was that the conventional response to blame the earthquake and subsequent tsunami and thus basically relieve any human error factor was in play early--
and that is just not what caused this problem or problems--especially the crutial mistakes initially in how they assessed the situation and the triage priorities that were set and acted upon which did nothing to deal with severity of the problem...

you can't claim that other people given the same set of circumstances would have reacted in the same way--
that is like using the law of gravity and citing the fact that water runs downhill to explain egregious errors in management after the fact--

other plants in other countries WILL face problems--even if they have managed to escape serious flaws up til now--but too many are in earthquake zones themselves or could fall victim to other problems like deliberate tampering--

I am just very upset that a problem that has been ill-managed from the start is till in the hands of people who can't deal with the problem--
and yet thousands and millions of people potentially could be paying the price for their mistakes and lack of leadership
Japan needs to take over control and put this into the hands of people who can solve this problem--I am sure that although other nuclear experts from other countries are there that the Japanese are still calling the shots and everything must pass through their heirarchy of control--
which is basically which caused many of the problems initially...

to my mind -- they are letting the blind lead--not a good option for solving problems...
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Old 04-04-2011, 08:34 AM
 
Location: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
11,155 posts, read 29,207,864 times
Reputation: 5479
Quote:
Originally Posted by loves2read View Post
Official: Radioactive water leaking into Pacific through crack in concrete - CNN.com

a day late--a yen short--and people's lives are the price for inactive management of this world crisis--
the Japanese social framework is not set up to deal with a crisis like this--
too deferential to the powers in place, too reluctant to call a spade a spade--or a nuclear debacle the danger it is--

The government is moving WAY too slowly and the nuclear power community should have been called in immediately--
75% of the damage (or more) from this plant's failures are going to be laid at HUMAN error--

even building the plant to a lower spec based on false assumtions of earthquake/tsunami strength was human error--so you could say that ALL of these problems have developed from false assumtions and weak management from construction foward....

the TEPCO authorities need to be held accountable for the long-term consequences of this disaster--and I mean prison time...
no country is ready for 3 huge disaters to happen pretty much one right after the other you got whole cities washed away devasted inland cities from equke damage and roads blocked by debris and a full scale nuclear meltdown
the plant did not fail because of earthquake strength it was in auto **** down mode for 1 hour but the tsunami flooded the back up diesel generator with sea wator thus no more water circulation and thus a huge steam and hydrogen gas build up that blow the outer buiding apart from the immense pressure created.

it is no ones fault since poour plants here are not even close to being as earthquake proof so we should not be pointing fingers when that could very well been us facing that disaster on the west coast.

but when the big one hits us in the future atleast we know japan will come to our aid after we built up really good reations with the huge lifesaving rescue effort we sent out ASAP to help them
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Old 04-04-2011, 08:40 AM
 
Location: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
11,155 posts, read 29,207,864 times
Reputation: 5479
look if any of you saying they are not doing very much to stop the meltdown lets hear you ideas on how to stop it?
I bet that it would be more constructive try to come up with helpful ideas on how to stop first it. then you can blame who ever you want.
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Old 04-04-2011, 09:38 PM
 
599 posts, read 5,727,603 times
Reputation: 1273
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTOlover View Post
look if any of you saying they are not doing very much to stop the meltdown lets hear you ideas on how to stop it?
I bet that it would be more constructive try to come up with helpful ideas on how to stop first it. then you can blame who ever you want.
GTOlover, I think you are spot on.
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