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View Poll Results: Is the Caucasus European or Middle Eastern?
European 45 48.39%
Middle Eastern 48 51.61%
Voters: 93. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-16-2011, 03:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
It seems like having dark hair and eyes alone shouldn't make one non-European. I think Sicilians are mostly dark-haired and dark-eyed.

I do admit when I was looking for things for Sicilians, Maltese, and Greeks they did look a bit more like other Europeans than those Azeri did. However that could be clothing, hairstyle, and shaving issues. The Caucasus I think are generally less developed than most of Europe. A well-dressed affluent Azeri might look perfectly "European", whatever that means. To be honest when I was in High School I knew these Egyptian Christians and my Mom, on first seeing them, thought they were Italian. (Possibly they were of partial European ancestry though) So possibly appearance isn't even defining.
That's true, especially Georgians are not as dark as Sicilians, Southern Spanish or Greek.

Caucasus people have Russian style habits and clothing mostly, so not western, except the elite. But the same goes for Ukraine or Moldova.

Some Egyptians look European, but most don't, too much admixture with Africans. Same goes for Cubans or Mexicans.
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Old 07-16-2011, 05:27 PM
 
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Middle Eastern. Culturally very different then Western Europe.
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Old 07-16-2011, 08:20 PM
 
Location: 30-40°N 90-100°W
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
No, that's not enough of course.




Yes they might and they do ( this is just an example - a famous Azeri singer from Soviet times)

http://www.peoples.ru/art/music/stag...maev_85421.jpg

They ( Caucasians) can be very refined and have an aura about them that is slightly reminiscent of Italians, but overall (when I visited Tblilisy for example for the first time,) I've had a feeling that it was some lost civilization, the remnant of something that's not around any longer and that doesn't have any parallels (in modern history at least.) After all Caucasus is one of the most ancient places in the history of human kind.
Yeah there should maybe be other options besides "European or Middle Eastern." At least "Other" as a third option.

To be honest I'm a little surprised Middle Eastern is winning. To me it's pretty clear they're either European or something all their own. Cher was born "Cherilyn Sarkisian", more of Armenian ancestry than anything. French singer Charles Aznavour is just Armenian in ancestry. Former US Chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff John Shalikashviliis of Georgian ancestry. It's interesting to think they're all "Middle Eastern" Americans or Frenchman.

cherilyn sarkisian - Google Search

charles aznavour - Google Search

John Shalikashvili - Google Search
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Old 07-16-2011, 08:22 PM
 
Location: Sierra Vista, AZ
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They are Caucasian
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Old 07-16-2011, 09:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boompa View Post
They are Caucasian
Caucasian and European are not the same thing. Heck Ethiopians are technically Caucasoid.

The culture of Armenia and Azerbejian is very different from Europe. Truly Europe ends at Greece. I would even venture to say that Greece is the beginning of the near east from a cultural perspective.
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Old 07-17-2011, 01:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by takeo3 View Post
erasure




I'm a Jid...




That's normal, because they have so much in common. But politically they are not allies.




still today. And they still laugh at georgian accents and behavior.
‪Valeri Meladze & Soso Pavliashvili - Blondinka.‬‏ - YouTube



I agree.(altough Putin was better than Yeltsin, and Shevarnadze slightly better than Saakashvili)




true, by doing so everyone lost, Russians too.



Thus explaining much of the hatred against the West in Russia and Soviet-nostalgia.

not only Putin, the whole bunch, especially Saakashvili as well.
And the West took advantage of the situation to stir more trouble, especially in Georgia.[/quote]

OK, so the end of seventies then)))
(I assume that you do know that the clip that you've posted ( with a song) is a parody of an old movie from the 60ies)))
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Old 07-17-2011, 01:07 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
Yeah there should maybe be other options besides "European or Middle Eastern." At least "Other" as a third option.

To be honest I'm a little surprised Middle Eastern is winning.
I bet it's after I've posted those Azeri's Youtube clips)))
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Old 07-17-2011, 01:10 AM
 
26,750 posts, read 22,234,659 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skihikeclimb View Post
Caucasian and European are not the same thing. Heck Ethiopians are technically Caucasoid.

The culture of Armenia and Azerbejian is very different from Europe.
From Western Europe - yes. But not all that different from the culture of Eastern Europe. Particularly when we are talking about Georgia and Armenia.
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Old 07-17-2011, 02:39 AM
 
Location: 30-40°N 90-100°W
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skihikeclimb View Post
Caucasian and European are not the same thing. Heck Ethiopians are technically Caucasoid.
It seems like they're a mix, but I have heard that. Middle Easterners are Caucasoid anyway. I mean if that term has any meaning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skihikeclimb View Post
The culture of Armenia and Azerbaijan is very different from Europe.
Looking into this stuff I am actually less certain than I was, but I still think statements like this run into problems. I don't think there is some unified European culture that Armenia or Azerbaijan can be unlike.

If it's an issue of development than Moldova isn't European either. Macedonia and Ukraine might also not count.

If it's an EU thing than Norway and Switzerland aren't European.

If it's a religion thing than Albania is out as Muslim while Georgia is certainly in as it's Eastern Orthodox. (Possibly you could argue Armenia is Oriental-Orthodox the way some Middle-Eastern Christians, like Copts, are)

If it's language than all kinds of people are out while Armenia is in.

If it's geography there's not that clear a division between Europe and Asia. However from what I can tell the Caucasus are on the Eurasian Plate, not the Arabian Plate, and their longitude certainly looks to be west of the Urals.

Tectonics of the Arabian Plate
Ural Mountains

Quote:
Originally Posted by skihikeclimb View Post
Truly Europe ends at Greece. I would even venture to say that Greece is the beginning of the near east from a cultural perspective.
So Cyprus isn't European either?
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Old 07-17-2011, 03:23 AM
 
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I would say out of the three, Armenians are the closest to being European since they were a part of the Byzantine Empire and since they heavily influenced Byzantine culture. The Macedonian Dynasty for example was mostly Armenian. The Georgians are also close to being European since they are part of Eastern Orthodoxy and have underwent Russification the longest out of the three. Between Georgians and Armenians, it is a tie really. The Azeris, on the other hand are the closest to being Middle Eastern since they are Muslim and since the majority of Azeris live in Iran. The Azeris have been heavily influenced by Persian culture and are mostly Shiite as a result.

That said, I don't think most people would consider Caucasians to be European because Caucasian culture is heavily influenced by Islam and Oriental Orthodox Christianity. Most Caucasian cultures also do not, for the most part, use the Latin, Greek, or Cyrillic scripts for their languages. They did use the Cyrillic script when they were a part of the Soviet Union but even Kazakhs and Uzbeks used the Cyrillic script when they were a part of the Soviet Union. The Azeris did switch to the Latin script but that is not the native script that the Azeris have traditionally used.

I also don't think most people would consider them Middle Eastern since they have been influenced by Russians and have all underwent varying degrees of Russification. Caucasian culture have even been influenced by Central Asian culture as well since they were part of the Mongol Empire and the various factions that emerged from the remnants of that Empire such as the Golden Horde and Timurid Empire.

It is best to say that Caucasian culture is a crossroad of different cultures so it is unique and neither European nor Middle Eastern. Classifying them as European or Middle Eastern is too simplistic and does a disservice to this unique region.
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