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Just wanted to state that I am thoroughly enjoying this thread and, with the exception of a few, every post I've read. What an enlightening topic. I'm enthralled by the vast POV's, experiences and civil tone of the responses. This is by far the best thread I've engaged in.
First, I love the Europe, and may very well want to experience living there someday once I get off my duff and make the proper arrangements to get appropriate citizenship recognition. But, this thread is silly with its generalizations of BOTH European lifestyles and American lifestyles.
First, there is simply too much diversity of lifestyle between the 310 million Americans to say what is "typical." Most of what is lamented here (long commutes, etc.) is a PERSONAL CHOICE by those who have different values. I live five minutes from work. The guy in the office next door to me chose to live in a larger suburban home 40 minutes from work. I shouldn't be criticized for my choice to live near downtown, and neither should he. Because this is America, and we're supposed to value people's individual choices.
I would also say that the Americans who work more than 40 hours per week tend to be of the career-minded professional class, the salaried people. Most working class employers are loathe to pay overtime. On average, these people will most often have the resources to travel abroad vs., say, a truck driver, and often decent benefits and at least 2-3 weeks vacation (in addition to federal holidays).
Compounding this fact is the reality that Americans often do not travel abroad because there is so much within the country itself to explore without leaving the country. It is far more convenient and a lot less time consuming (and less expensive!) to travel intra-country, especially when they have a family. A lot easier to schlepp three kids to Disney World than to travel to Argentina.
Americans can visit tropical beaches, snowy mountains, desert biomes and dozens of large cosmopolitan cities without leaving the borders. A Finn will necessarily have to leave his nation and travel to the Caribbean or through a few countries to get to a nice Mediterranean beach.
Certainly, I am not impressed by Germans visiting Portugal. That's the equivalent of New Yorkers flying down to Florida. You can hop a train in Paris and be in London in a couple of hours. It takes me longer to drive to Georgia from where I live.
I will agree that Americans overall are more provincial. "Home life" appears to be more valued in America than in Europe, IMO. A lot more focus on spending free time ferreting kids around to sports, clubs, etc.
As for the supposed vapidness bemoaned by the current expat living in Portugal, Americans whining about how different it is from home is no different than Europeans coming here and complaining about the way things are in America. "Not enough trains," "too many cars" or "no good wine" is the same thing as whining about the standard accommodations in Europe vs. the United States. It is the way it is. Anytime you compare "how it is back home" to where you are now, you are making a value judgment, and in reality, you should be appreciating that that is how its done elsewhere.
BTW, if you have never met a Portuguese who has ever wanted to move to the United States, just visit Palm Coast Florida and New Jersey/Massachusetts to find plenty of Portuguese who have made the move (I say this as someone whose family immigrated from Portugal to the United States in the 60s and 70s). A lot stopped coming over once the EU started pumping economic life support into the country, but we'll see how sustainable the way of life of the last 15 years or so is as austerity measures are imposed.
These days the Portuguese are moving to Central Europe. A significant proportion of Luxembourg's population already is Portuguese. No idea why Luxembourg, though Others go to Angola, because of the construction boom there. If it weren't for the historical bonds, they would not get work permits there.
There are few Portuguese moving to the US, mostly investors in real estate etc. Ambitious people who have the money to go anywhere anyway. The bulk of the Portuguese, however, is not qualified enough to immigrate hardly anywhere outside the EU, with the exception of the country's excellent life science scholars.
Read Weber's "Protestant Ethic and Spirit of Capitalism."
I think you have a very narrow view of what constitutes an "average Joe." I've met many who are well-read individuals with varied interests. I've also met many boring people, including some Germans. No country has the market cornered on bad taste and superficiality. But with the condescending tone you pass off on C-D, I wouldn't be surprised if folks opted not to devle into those interests with you and, thus, kept the topics simple.
You know I've been reading some of this guy's posts and he appears to be an anti-american troll just looking to get a rise out of people. More people would listen to what he has to say if not for his condescending attitude.
Most developed nations have a bourgeoisie. I don't know how many Americans are familiar with that term.
Yes, Germany has many blue collar knuckleheads, I've met them. Germany also has many bourgeoisie.
America may hold the distinction of being the world's staunch fortress of the bourgeoisie. This is the society that revolves around money.
The bourgeoisie usually have a disdain for anything intellectual. Using America's mass media as a barometer it's easy to see that the mass media offers very little that is thought provoking, but plenty of commercials for stuff to elevate social status. If anyone thinks that the History Channel provides intellectual stimulus, forget it!
Check out America's list of best sellers. In the non-fiction category, books about wealth, dieting, and biographies do well. In fiction one can read books about romance, murder mysteries, and spy thrillers.
Americans prefer fiction novels. How many Americans would bother to read books that present ideas? Such as philosophy and social criticism. Maybe it's all escape from the drudgery of daily life and feeling beaten down.
About two years ago I started a thread wanting to know what Americans do with their brains after job hours. Very few responded. Most had little to offer. The thread didn't get past 2 pages. Maybe that describes Americans.
Does anyone still remember the lists compiled at the approach of the year 2000? Lists like the 100 best movies of the 20th Century. Lists for the top 50 sports plays, 50 best TV shows, 100 best songs, 100 best singers, etc.
To that I also started a thread. Instead of 50, name just 5 of America's best known intellectuals of the 20th Century. That thread tanked too. Five was asking too much.
Things like that have a lot to say about American society. America, as a bourgeoisie society, is obsessed with materialism, and only interested in that which has the possibility of a material gain. Things to enrich the mind are scoffed. When I went to school, the smart kids were called "egg-heads", nowadays, they are called 'nerds'.
Last edited by Visvaldis; 09-20-2011 at 02:16 PM..
Just wanted to state that I am thoroughly enjoying this thread and, with the exception of a few, every post I've read. What an enlightening topic. I'm enthralled by the vast POV's, experiences and civil tone of the responses. This is by far the best thread I've engaged in.
Thank you all.
Agreed - this is one of a very small number of long threads on an interesting topic many may have opinions on which hasn't gone completely off-topic or been hijacked by people looking for a fight or or who have no idea what they are talking about - well done!
Most developed nations have a bourgeoisie. I don't know how many Americans are familiar with that term.
Exhibit A of your condescending attitude. It does sort of depend on your usage of the term. The lack of intellectualism that you bemoan can be said to be more common of the proletarians in our society and is a reason they're stuck in the social class in which they belong. Most of the folks you ridicule don't actually own or control the means of production in the U.S.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Visvaldis
Yes, Germany has many blue collar knuckleheads, I've met them. Germany also has many bourgeoisie.
America may hold the distinction of being the world's staunch fortress of the bourgeoisie. This is the society that revolves around money.
The bourgeoisie usually have a disdain for anything intellectual. Using America's mass media as a barometer it's easy to see that the mass media offers very little that is thought provoking, but plenty of commercials for stuff to elevate social status. If anyone thinks that the History Channel provides intellectual stimulus, forget it!
Check out America's list of best sellers. In the non-fiction category, books about wealth, dieting, and biographies do well. In fiction one can read books about romance, murder mysteries, and spy thrillers.
Americans prefer fiction novels. How many Americans would bother to read books that present ideas? Such as philosophy and social criticism. Maybe it's all escape from the drudgery of daily life and feeling beaten down.
About two years ago I started a thread wanting to know what Americans do with their brains after job hours. Very few responded. Most had little to offer. The thread didn't get past 2 pages. Maybe that describes Americans.
Does anyone still remember the lists compiled at the approach of the year 2000? Lists like the 100 best movies of the 20th Century. Lists for the top 50 sports plays, 50 best TV shows, 100 best songs, 100 best singers, etc.
To that I also started a thread. Instead of 50, name just 5 of America's best known intellectuals. That thread tanked too. Five was asking too much.
Things like that have a lot to say about American society. America, as a bourgeoisie society, is obsessed with materialism, and only interested in that which has the possibility of a material gain. Things to enrich the mind are scoffed. When I went to school, the smart kids were called "egg-heads", nowadays, they are called 'nerds'.
You came to an internet message board and expected a bastion of intellectual conversation? Now who's the fool?
BTW - They were called "nerds" when I went to school in the mid-80s. The crude movie "Revenge of the Nerds" should come to mind.
Seems to me you're just a culture snob. But what do I know? I'm just a proletarian.Or am I bourgeoisie? Who the heck knows, I'm just so lacking in intellect.
Exhibit A of your condescending attitude. It does sort of depend on your usage of the term. The lack of intellectualism that you bemoan can be said to be more common of the proletarians in our society and is a reason they're stuck in the social class in which they belong. Most of the folks you ridicule don't actually own or control the means of production in the U.S.
You came to an internet message board and expected a bastion of intellectual conversation? Now who's the fool?
BTW - They were called "nerds" when I went to school in the mid-80s. The crude movie "Revenge of the Nerds" should come to mind.
Seems to me you're just a culture snob. But what do I know? I'm just a proletarian.Or am I bourgeoisie? Who the heck knows, I'm just so lacking in intellect.
How often have you heard an American use the term 'bourgeoisie'?
Cheer up!
'Cultural snob' is often the only defense the prolos have. If that is something deserving of scorn, I don't care. I appreciate the arts, literature, I even listen to classical music (and punk), read books by Nietzsche, Sartre, Henry Miller, and others, I like history, achitecture. Is that a cultural snob? So what! I'd rather have those interests than TV and argue about sports. I've had my share of blue collar jobs, but devoted my spare time to things I considered more worthwhile.
I'm not the American success story. I drive a 4 cylinder 5 speed car, it's 14 years old, but works fine. I know enough about autos to fix problems. In my rented apartment I fix the plumbing, floors, and minor electrical problems. Sometimes I go to a local bar to drink a Miller Genuine Draft with the hicks and rednecks. My life style is maybe prolo, but my head isn't. I don't sit back in my leather chair in the den full of scholarly books, toke up my pipe, and level criticism of the blue collars. I don't even own a home. And, I would like to smoke weed, but unfortunately, peeing in a cup for jobs discourages that idea. During my last 11 years in Frankfurt, Germany, I toked a small bowl of hash after the job almost every day. I miss that.
"Egghead' was the term when I went to school, about 25 years before you.
This afternoon I plan to drink black coffee with a snifter of French cognac on the side. I will toast to you!
And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. I like to joke that I grew up just one notch above the trailer park but made good of myself. Still, I try not to look down on those with a "prolo" mind, as you might say. Variety is the spice of life. We can't expect everyone to be an intellectual, and most of those who aren't are still human beings who add something to this world.
But I have to say, I think I get it now -- you're just an old hippie. Made me think of this clip from Field of Dreams:
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Others go to Angola, because of the construction boom there. If it weren't for the historical bonds, they would not get work permits there.
