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View Poll Results: Which do you prefer overall?
Beijing 23 46.00%
Moscow 27 54.00%
Voters: 50. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-21-2011, 01:58 PM
 
Location: SPb
16 posts, read 41,555 times
Reputation: 30

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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
I don't get it - what "concrete Soviet style architecture and "communist-era boulevards" are you talking about?
Are you saying that there were no boulevards in Moscow before communists?
You can't be serious, unless you are trying to be a provocateur. I don't understand the obsession some westerners have with all things 'Soviet' but to pretend his statement has no merit is outrageous.

Thankfully we are finally starting to get artistic architecture to return instead of this pre-fabricated in some factory in Kazan eyesore architecture that makes me happy I live in the city center of Petrograd and not some sleeping district.

Hell, at least Stalin era stuff had a style and reason to it. This Brezhnev era crap that is everywhere is the real shame of the Soviet Times. We had so many scientific breakthroughs and extremely artistic people and successful athletes, but we couldn't design an apartment building for the life of us.

I live in an apartment building built in the 1890s and it is in better condition than the apartment of my grandmother built in 1984.
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Old 11-21-2011, 04:25 PM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
27,360 posts, read 28,432,865 times
Reputation: 24876
Quote:
Originally Posted by sacramento916 View Post
But let's be honest here. This is an attitude typical of big countries. America is also the same way. Americans are very self-centric and provincial. Actually I travel a lot around the world, and the Chinese, though culturally disconnected with the world are actually very acutely aware of the political and economic realties globally and are moving fast to shore up their position as a global economic superpower. While Americans have a lackadaisical attitude and a false sense of supremacy, even though our country is rapidly losing ground and in decline, yet most Americans are completely ignorant of that and believe we are still in a position of unchallenged supremacy.
Come on, you don't really believe the hype, do you? China's GDP per capita is only 16% of the U.S.

It would take a hundred years for China to reach the U.S.'s level. And even that is unlikely.
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Old 11-21-2011, 08:40 PM
 
26,704 posts, read 22,343,784 times
Reputation: 9997
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasha Nevsky View Post
You can't be serious, unless you are trying to be a provocateur. I don't understand the obsession some westerners have with all things 'Soviet' but to pretend his statement has no merit is outrageous.

.
I was not *trying* anything, I wanted to figure out exactly what kind of "concrete Soviet buildings" people are talking about, when they think of USSR, KGB and the rest. This kind ( built in old part of Moscow) from 30ies to 50ies,

RetroMoscow.narod.ru -

or these ones, built in newer districts, in place of former villages from 60ies to 80ies?
http://spbvertikal.ru/upload/image/606.jpg


Moscow is an old European city, with 900 years of history, so those boulevards didn't come from Soviet era also, really - they were in place long time before that;

Ìîñêâà, êîòîðîé íåò

PS. I love architecture of Stalin's times by the way - high quality, it blended nicely with older part of Moscow.
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Old 11-21-2011, 09:02 PM
 
Location: The Heart of Dixie
10,130 posts, read 15,817,308 times
Reputation: 7118
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
Come on, you don't really believe the hype, do you? China's GDP per capita is only 16% of the U.S.

It would take a hundred years for China to reach the U.S.'s level. And even that is unlikely.
With China, the big cities like Beijing and Shanghai feel futuristic compared to American cities with the brand new skyscrapers, though most of the Chinese countryside is still Third World basically. There are many parts of China where many people don't have access to things like clean water or quality health care and live without air conditioning or running water. China is a very divided society, I hear Russia is the same way though not as pronounced.

The thing is though that even though the middle class in China may only be something like 25% of so or the population with the rest living in poverty, that 25% out of a billion people is already larger than the entire population of the United States so the competition really is there. For example the consumption by China's middle class minority alone is driving up world oil prices through increased demand and that is a lot of producers and consumers in the world economy. And in America's 300 million people we have to take into account all the people in the ghettos and illegal immigrants who contribue nothing to our society and even drag us backwards.
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Old 11-22-2011, 01:54 AM
 
1,348 posts, read 2,849,580 times
Reputation: 1247
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
Come on, you don't really believe the hype, do you? China's GDP per capita is only 16% of the U.S.

It would take a hundred years for China to reach the U.S.'s level. And even that is unlikely.
It's not hype. You would know if you actually travelled and did business there like I do.

It WAS 16% of America's GDP, that was 4 years ago. Ten years ago, it was a miniscule 10% of America's GDP. Today only a few years later, it is 40% of US GDP, at over 6 Trillion and that is ONLY because the RMB is seriously undervalued. If the RMB was brought to market levels, China's GDP would be about 70-80% of America's.

I don't think Americans are even aware of the challenges they will be facing, that's the part that scares me the most about this country's future.
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Old 11-22-2011, 01:58 AM
 
1,348 posts, read 2,849,580 times
Reputation: 1247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Lennox 70 View Post
With China, the big cities like Beijing and Shanghai feel futuristic compared to American cities with the brand new skyscrapers, though most of the Chinese countryside is still Third World basically. There are many parts of China where many people don't have access to things like clean water or quality health care and live without air conditioning or running water. China is a very divided society, I hear Russia is the same way though not as pronounced.

The thing is though that even though the middle class in China may only be something like 25% of so or the population with the rest living in poverty, that 25% out of a billion people is already larger than the entire population of the United States so the competition really is there. For example the consumption by China's middle class minority alone is driving up world oil prices through increased demand and that is a lot of producers and consumers in the world economy. And in America's 300 million people we have to take into account all the people in the ghettos and illegal immigrants who contribue nothing to our society and even drag us backwards.
True. But the rural portion of China's population is rapidly decreasing. 20 years ago, China was 80% rural. This year, it just tipped over 50% urban and in 30 years, China will be a primarily urban nation, something like over 80%. This is what is continuing to fuel it's growing middle class, and continued rapid growth.

Not to mention that China has 1.3 billion people, is relatively homogeneous culturally and it is a culture that places a huge value on education and financial success. Literally, Chinese culture places HUGE pressure on the individual to seek educational and economic opportunities.

While in the US, a huge portion of the ghetto underclass is growing, that do not value education and personal responsibility. Even amongst the American middle class, there is nowhere near the sort of pressure placed on each individual to strive for more in life that you see in China. Of course the US has other advantages too, but I think the momentum is clearly on China's side considering its dynamism, ambition and huge size (4X America's pop), mark my words, it will be the world's largest economy by 2023, no later than that.
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Old 11-29-2011, 12:27 AM
 
Location: The Heart of Dixie
10,130 posts, read 15,817,308 times
Reputation: 7118
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
I was not *trying* anything, I wanted to figure out exactly what kind of "concrete Soviet buildings" people are talking about, when they think of USSR, KGB and the rest. This kind ( built in old part of Moscow) from 30ies to 50ies,

RetroMoscow.narod.ru -

or these ones, built in newer districts, in place of former villages from 60ies to 80ies?
http://spbvertikal.ru/upload/image/606.jpg


Moscow is an old European city, with 900 years of history, so those boulevards didn't come from Soviet era also, really - they were in place long time before that;

Ìîñêâà, êîòîðîé íåò

PS. I love architecture of Stalin's times by the way - high quality, it blended nicely with older part of Moscow.

Yes its images like those in these links I was talking about in terms of Soviet style buildings. Even movies that take place in Moscow today like the Bourne Supremacy really evoke that feel of the city. Moscow and Berlin would be two very interesting places to visit for the Cold War history.
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Old 11-29-2011, 03:54 AM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,606 posts, read 55,868,160 times
Reputation: 11862
Quote:
Originally Posted by sacramento916 View Post
True. But the rural portion of China's population is rapidly decreasing. 20 years ago, China was 80% rural. This year, it just tipped over 50% urban and in 30 years, China will be a primarily urban nation, something like over 80%. This is what is continuing to fuel it's growing middle class, and continued rapid growth.

Not to mention that China has 1.3 billion people, is relatively homogeneous culturally and it is a culture that places a huge value on education and financial success. Literally, Chinese culture places HUGE pressure on the individual to seek educational and economic opportunities.

While in the US, a huge portion of the ghetto underclass is growing, that do not value education and personal responsibility. Even amongst the American middle class, there is nowhere near the sort of pressure placed on each individual to strive for more in life that you see in China. Of course the US has other advantages too, but I think the momentum is clearly on China's side considering its dynamism, ambition and huge size (4X America's pop), mark my words, it will be the world's largest economy by 2023, no later than that.
I think the world's dependence on China is downright scary. Is anyone else slightly worried that 70-80% of our stuff in made in China? Not to say that anything Chinese-made is inferior, but what if the political situation worsened enough so that trade was compromised?

I've been to China, seen the big cities and the countryside...it is like night and day. It's like travelling from 1950 to 2020 from the country to the city. Bad poverty is rare and getting rarer, though. I'm talking Africa or India-style poverty. Even in the countryside people generally are not starving, like many were 30 years ago. Many Chinese do aspire to the American lifestyle; I saw plenty of American style homes, luxury cars (American cars or American marques seem popular over there), shopping malls springing out of nowhere (many of which are spookily empty, kind of like Dawn of the Dead without the zombies lol). Yes, China's international face doesn't quite match up to it's reality, but it's not just a mask.
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Old 11-29-2011, 07:30 AM
 
Location: Beverly, Mass
940 posts, read 1,929,934 times
Reputation: 541
Moscow is generally considered as an economic center of Russia, while it's former capital - Saint-Petersburg is more of a cultural center. This is where you will find the royal palaces, and Hermitage museum, the former imperial palace, which houses the largest collection of paintings in the world and is second only to Louvre with it's three million artworks.

The city is built on canals, and is known as the Venice of Russia. The soviet architecture doesn't dominate the downtown, like in Moscow:

"Unlike in Moscow, in Saint Petersburg the historic architecture of the city centre, mostly consisting of Baroque and neoclassical buildings of the 18th and 19th centuries, has been largely preserved" - Wikipedia

Although there is much to see in Moscow, I would describe it as being more fast-pased, busy and crowded, and Saint-Petersburg as being elegant, beautiful and historic.

So I would encourage the visitors not to judge Russia just by Moscow, and not to miss out on a visit to it's other historic and cultural capital.
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Old 11-30-2011, 12:15 AM
 
Location: In the heights
36,980 posts, read 38,997,288 times
Reputation: 21017
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
Come on, you don't really believe the hype, do you? China's GDP per capita is only 16% of the U.S.

It would take a hundred years for China to reach the U.S.'s level. And even that is unlikely.
At the rate China's going with the growth and acceleration of its gdp per capita (slow growth in population, big growth in gdp) compared to the US, it's hard to call it hype. This is coupled with just the sheer absolute numbers of its GDP which is something worth considering. Also consider that China seriously devalues its currency and is actually far wealthier than the stats suggest meanwhile its leadership of technocrats are actually making fairly decent moves in terms of the economy (the majority of current Chinese major politicians are either scientists or engineers; the majority of current American major politicians are either lawyers or businessmen despite the fact that we have some of the best scientists and engineers in the world; does anyone in the upper echelons of American politics besides Steven Chu have a solid grasp on systems of partial differential equations, object-oriented programming, or the scientific method?).
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