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Old 01-28-2012, 12:05 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,523,609 times
Reputation: 35864

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Quote:
Originally Posted by burgler09 View Post
Yeah, their leader executed over 250,000 innocent people, tried to invade an ally of ours and broke a treaty agreement with us. USA is so terrible, Iraq is such a nice place and Sadaam Hussein was such a nice guy Jtur, honestly your ideas are just comical.
They were not innocent people, they were deemed to be enemies of the state, and were actually guilty of involvement in revolutionary activities aimed at overthrowing the government. The "ally" of ours (Kuwait, right?) was a country that was an absolute dictatorship, headed by a monarch, and had never had an election, not even a bogus one, and had historically been a part of what became Iraq, and separated from it by an edict from a foreign power. An ally of ours only by virtue of kissing our ass. Like the US never invaded any country.

You think my idea is comical, how about your idea that Saddam just drove around the streets with a gun murdering people at random by the hundreds. Like the Americans actually did when Saddam was no longer there to defend them.

Saddam was no better nor worse than a couple of dozen other despots that the USA imposed and supported and defended around the world. He was certainly no worse than the Shah of Iran. And at least, Saddam used his authoritarian power to significantly improve the economy of his country.
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Old 01-28-2012, 12:13 PM
 
Location: Viña del Mar, Chile
16,416 posts, read 25,194,987 times
Reputation: 16464
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
They were not innocent people, they were deemed to be enemies of the state, and were actually guilty of involvement in revolutionary activities aimed at overthrowing the government. The "ally" of ours (Kuwait, right?) was a country that was an absolute dictatorship, headed by a monarch, and had never had an election, not even a bogus one, and had historically been a part of what became Iraq, and separated from it by an edict from a foreign power. An ally of ours only by virtue of kissing our ass. Like the US never invaded any country.

You think my idea is comical, how about your idea that Saddam just drove around the streets with a gun murdering people at random by the hundreds. Like the Americans actually did when Saddam was no longer there to defend them.

Saddam was no better nor worse than a couple of dozen other despots that the USA imposed and supported and defended around the world. He was certainly no worse than the Shah of Iran. And at least, Saddam used his authoritarian power to significantly improve the economy of his country.
Do some research about how Saddam treated the Kurds, then get back to me
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Old 01-28-2012, 12:44 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,523,609 times
Reputation: 35864
Quote:
Originally Posted by burgler09 View Post
Do some research about how Saddam treated the Kurds, then get back to me
Do some research about how the US government treats blacks and hispanics and get back to me. Do some research about how the US tobacco industry treated all Americans and get back to me. Do some research about how the US government treated the Vietnamese and get back to me. Do some research on how the US treated the people in the southern states, when they (like the Kurds) fomented revolution and tried to break away from our control. Do some research about how many Iraqi children died from disease, malnutrition or bad water during US-enforced sanctions, and get back to me. (hint: it was more than 250,000) Do some research about how the US-appointed Shah of Iran treated Iranians and get back to me.

I never said Saddam had no faults, I acknowledged that he was an average despot, I never even challenged your figure of 250,000, even though it is pretty comical. Ask yourself this: Would you rather be a common Iraqi worker or mother trying to raise and support a family in Iraq :
a) before Saddam, or
b) under Saddam 's national modernization and economic and social development, or
c) during US enforcement of sanctions, or
d) since 2002, or
e) in the next decade?
What is your answer? My answer, without hesitation, would be B, and if you don't know why, you have a lot of reading about Iraq to do, and I don't mean your usual dittohead blogs.

Last edited by jtur88; 01-28-2012 at 12:58 PM..
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Old 01-28-2012, 01:00 PM
 
Location: Viña del Mar, Chile
16,416 posts, read 25,194,987 times
Reputation: 16464
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Do some research about how the US government treats blacks and hispanics and get back to me. Do some research about how the US tobacco industry treated all Americans and get back to me. Do some research about how the US government treated the Vietnamese and get back to me. Do some research on how the US treated the people in the southern states, when they (like the Kurds) fomented revolution and tried to break away from our control. Do some research about how the US-appointed Shah of Iran treated Iranians and get back to me.

I never said Saddam had no faults, I acknowledged that he was an average despot, I never even challenged your figure of 250,000, even though it is pretty comical. Ask yourself this: Would you rather be a common Iraqi worker or mother trying to raise and support a family in Iraq :
a) before Saddam, or
b) under Saddam in the 1980s, or
c) during US enforcement of sanctions, or
d) since 2002?
What is your answer?
How the US government treats hispanics and blacks? What? Oh you mean by bending over backwards for them to create equal opportunities programs and to make sure that things go fairly for them? Or maybe making it illegal to do any type of racial profiling, or how about the fines and types of ways a black/hispanic/minority can sue companies and universities for "racism"

The US tobacco companies? You mean the companies that paid millions and millions of dollars to people who chose to smoke? On top of that, that has nothing to do with the theme.

How we treated the people who wanted to break off from the country and start their own because they couldn't have slavery? They wanted to be their own country, what were we supposed to do? On top of that, that was well over 100 years ago..


The US has no close ties with Iran, I am not exactly sure how you're calling him the US-appointed, he hates the United States.







Your final question is a double edged sword, and that is impossible to answer because I don't live in Iraq. What I do know is that there are many Iraqis who are upset with the change, and there are also many Iraqis who are happy with the change. You can take whatever statistic you want there.

You can say whatever you like, but Sadaam broke a treaty with us, under the treaty he was required to give us access to see what is going on in his country and he denied it, which is a direct violation. It is not our fault he was an idiot, and also, you cannot say he was not a threat to the USA, and I can guarantee you, whether it was then or now, he would have done something to us, imagine if nothing was done and he attacked our land, then who would be crying?

Say whatever you like, but you just spit any anti-american propaganda that you can, probably just to get a rise out of people.
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Old 01-28-2012, 01:32 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
2,942 posts, read 4,216,951 times
Reputation: 3401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Proterra View Post
I miss Poland as being listed as one of the countries with the most positive future...

- Economically:

We've had constant economic growth since 1991, the unemployment rate nowadays is below the EU average, and places like Szczecin have in recent years seen Germans going there to find jobs, and Polish buying cheap properties across the German border...
Our GDP per capita quadrupled over the last 20 years, and is expected to do so for the forseeable future. Our HDI is expected by the UN to surpass that of Sweden sometime between 2020 and 2025, and that of Germany sometime shortly after 2030.
We have already passed the Netherlands as the sixth-largest economy in the EU three years ago.
Also, Polish law is rather favourable to foreign investment, although there's still plenty of room for improvement in the bureaucracy department. Our GINI is relatively low, on par with countries like the Netherlands and Scandinavia, which basically means we have a very large (although, for EU standards, relatively poor) middle class.

- Politically:

We've been one of the more stable countries within the EU over the last 5 years, and the current government actually got re-elected last October. Our constitution actually bans large foreign debts (over 60%), providing for automatic austerity measures in case this happens anyways. The current government has emphasized upgrading our infrastructure, which was in desperate need for exactly that after decades of near-neglect. Over 500 miles (800 kilometres) of new freeways were built in 2011, another 600-700 miles (1000 kilometres) will be built in 2012. After 2012, this will be scaled down to around 200 miles (300 kilometres) per year, and the emphasis will be shifted more towards the rail infrastructure.

- Natural resouces:

Recently the second largest natural (shale) gas reserves in the world have been surveyed. This is enough to power Poland for half a millennium with the current use, or the whole of the EU for three decades.

My guess is, if we manage to keep populism out of government, keep on upgrading our infrastructure to German standards (this will take at least another decade, though) and get rid of all unnecessary bureaucracy, Poland could be well on it's way to become a key player in the EU, both politically as well as economically, within the next decade.
Yes, I would definitely include Poland as one of the countries with a positive future as well. They are going in the right direction, along with a few other Central European countries (Slovenia, Czech Rep., Slovakia, Hungary, Croatia). The Baltic states are improving as well, as far as I can see.

Other countries that appear to have promising futures are Brazil and possibly Italy (if Monti's plans to liberalise the economy materialise). By 'promising futures' I mean these countries are expected to be in better shape than they are now, not that they're necessarily better than other countries.

I'm not sure about China, I've read reports saying their economy is like a bubble that is about to collapse. I don't have enough knowledge about their economy to really assess these claims though. China is certainly increasing in importance on the international stage due to the rapid growth of their economy and if they manage to keep it up, the future is looking bright for them. However, we must not forget that a significant part of the population still lives in poverty so it's all relative.

Of course, there are many countries that are currently doing well and are expected to remain stable (i.e. keep doing well) in the future, such as the Scandinavian countries and the Netherlands (and Germany?).

Certain countries seem to be in decline or aren't growing as fast as they used to. Japan comes to mind. They may be in a worse position in the future than they are now. I'm also pessimistic about Greece, it seems like a hopeless case. I don't see them improving any time soon.
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Old 01-28-2012, 02:00 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,523,609 times
Reputation: 35864
Quote:
Originally Posted by burgler09 View Post
The US has no close ties with Iran, I am not exactly sure how you're calling him the US-appointed, he hates the United States.
He's been dead for 32 years, and the hostage crisis was partly due to America continuing to protect him after he was deposed and the whole world was clamoring for his head.


Quote:
Your final question is a double edged sword, and that is impossible to answer because I don't live in Iraq.
. . . and because you know absolutely nothing about Iraq, and don't bother to learn, and simply shout down anyone who tries to tell you.

As for the Kurds, Iraqi nationalists and Kurdish rebels were in a more or less continuous state of war since 20 years before Saddam took power, with heavy fighting breaking out on a number of occasions, and 200,000 Kurds were forcibly relocated in southern Iraq long before anybody ever heard of Saddam. That was a mess that he inherited, and the Kurdish threat to the Iraqi nation was already a serious threat to any administration.

Last edited by jtur88; 01-28-2012 at 02:17 PM..
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Old 01-28-2012, 02:44 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,523,609 times
Reputation: 35864
Here is a list of the countries that have, over the past 20 years, had the highest annual growth rate of GDP per capita, ranked in order, all above 5% annual growth:

Equatorial Guinea
Bosnia-Herzegovina
Antigua
Botswana
Myanmar
Cambodia
China
St. Kitts
St. Lucia
Vanuatu
Albania
Cyprus
Estonia
Maldives
Singapore
Trinidad-Tobago
Bhutan

Source: UNdata | record view | GDP per capita average annual growth rate
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Old 01-28-2012, 02:50 PM
 
Location: Viña del Mar, Chile
16,416 posts, read 25,194,987 times
Reputation: 16464
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
He's been dead for 32 years, and the hostage crisis was partly due to America continuing to protect him after he was deposed and the whole world was clamoring for his head.
Well it sure looks like Iran did good for themselves now.


Quote:
. . . and because you know absolutely nothing about Iraq, and don't bother to learn, and simply shout down anyone who tries to tell you.

As for the Kurds, Iraqi nationalists and Kurdish rebels were in a more or less continuous state of war since 20 years before Saddam took power, with heavy fighting breaking out on a number of occasions, and 200,000 Kurds were forcibly relocated in southern Iraq long before anybody ever heard of Saddam. That was a mess that he inherited, and the Kurdish threat to the Iraqi nation was already a serious threat to any administration.

If you are saying the way Sadaam Hussein treated the Kurds was ok, then I don't see why you are against USA going in and taking him out. We were looking for ourselves too. I'm not against that, I'm glad I live in a country that can keep us safe. You can call me closed minded if you want, but you're not much different than I am, just on the other side of the spectrum.
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Old 01-28-2012, 03:42 PM
 
Location: Kowaniec, Nowy Targ, Podhale. 666 m n.p.m.
371 posts, read 811,065 times
Reputation: 470
Quote:
Originally Posted by LindavG View Post
Yes, I would definitely include Poland as one of the countries with a positive future as well. They are going in the right direction, along with a few other Central European countries (Slovenia, Czech Rep., Slovakia, Hungary, Croatia). The Baltic states are improving as well, as far as I can see.

Other countries that appear to have promising futures are Brazil and possibly Italy (if Monti's plans to liberalise the economy materialise). By 'promising futures' I mean these countries are expected to be in better shape than they are now, not that they're necessarily better than other countries.

I'm not sure about China, I've read reports saying their economy is like a bubble that is about to collapse. I don't have enough knowledge about their economy to really assess these claims though. China is certainly increasing in importance on the international stage due to the rapid growth of their economy and if they manage to keep it up, the future is looking bright for them. However, we must not forget that a significant part of the population still lives in poverty so it's all relative.

Of course, there are many countries that are currently doing well and are expected to remain stable (i.e. keep doing well) in the future, such as the Scandinavian countries and the Netherlands (and Germany?).

Certain countries seem to be in decline or aren't growing as fast as they used to. Japan comes to mind. They may be in a worse position in the future than they are now. I'm also pessimistic about Greece, it seems like a hopeless case. I don't see them improving any time soon.
I agree with Scandinavia and Germany. The Netherlands, however, is in my opinion on a turning point. They're doing extremely well despite the mess that their political system has been for the last decade (same goes for Belgium, in my opinion) - which for both countries is largely thanks to how well their economy is...

Still, with the rise of populism as a viable political option, and the unwillingness there as a result to bring forth economic reforms, which mean that the young generation in NL will carry the full burden for a system they will not benefit from, I can't help thinking that the future for NL isn't a bright as it could be given their economic power...

But,

If they in the Netherlands would somehow manage to raise the retirement age, get rid of this weird law that interest over mortgage can be deducted from taxes, and channel more money in to the educational system they can have a very bright future, with kids actually able to afford a home and - a somewhat more limited - welfare system which will actually still be around in 50 years to come.

But they need to break the Wilders Party and the Socialist Party for that. I personally actually really like the way the Dutch Greens have been going, from a group of predominantly treehuggers to a very progressive liberal party with policies which would actually make sense. Same with that D66 party... But that's just my opinion, mileage may vary. Personally I would love to see a grand EU-wide coalition of Ruch Palikota, the Dutch Greens and the SNP in Scotland...
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Old 01-28-2012, 04:01 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,523,609 times
Reputation: 35864
Quote:
Originally Posted by burgler09 View Post

If you are saying the way Sadaam Hussein treated the Kurds was ok, then I don't see why you are against USA going in and taking him out. We were looking for ourselves too. I'm not against that, I'm glad I live in a country that can keep us safe. You can call me closed minded if you want, but you're not much different than I am, just on the other side of the spectrum.
I never said that. I said Saddam inherited the presidency of a country that was already at war with and threatened by the Kurdish minority in the north, and as president, he had a right to take appropriate measures to defend the republic from threats within and without. I will not deny that he was heavy handed at times, as autocrats often are, but he was about average as autocrats go.

If you think rank and file Iraqis are better off now than they were in the 80s, you have an odd sense of wellbeing, and you're entitled to your opinion, but don't use the US military-industrial complex to shove it down everyone else's throat.
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