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Old 07-15-2012, 09:07 PM
 
985 posts, read 2,323,535 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
No, Rosling is questioning the term "Western," that's why he becomes inclusive of Russia. However you can hear that his opponents are saying to him "no" when he asks them whether Russian writers ( composers, scientists) are part of Western culture. He'd like to say "yes," but they obviously deny it, since in their mind Russia is definitely not part of the "West."

There is no mess, really, and Rosling is trying to deny the obvious as far as I am concerned.
So he's trying to deny the obvious fact that Russian writers ( composers, scientists) are not part of the Western culture, which his opponents are saying to him??

I think you're right that Rosling is questioning the term "Western".

Here are just a few countries or areas that can be part of "the West" or "the Rest" depending on what criteria one takes:
Former Eastern Bloc, including former GDR
Japan and the Asian Tigers
Many Latin American countries
Australia & NZ
Israel
Large chunks of Africa, including the Arab countries in the North.
Turkey and other (former) allies of the Western Bloc in Asia
Philippines and other Christian areas in Asia


That's like half of the world where opinions vary on whether they're "western" or not.
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Old 07-15-2012, 09:49 PM
 
6,274 posts, read 4,584,129 times
Reputation: 3351
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neutre View Post
So he's trying to deny the obvious fact that Russian writers ( composers, scientists) are not part of the Western culture, which his opponents are saying to him??
Basically, yes.

Quote:
I think you're right that Rosling is questioning the term "Western".

Here are just a few countries or areas that can be part of "the West" or "the Rest" depending on what criteria one takes:
Former Eastern Bloc, including former GDR
Japan and the Asian Tigers
Many Latin American countries
Australia & NZ
Israel
Large chunks of Africa, including the Arab countries in the North.
Turkey and other (former) allies of the Western Bloc in Asia
Philippines and other Christian areas in Asia


That's like half of the world where opinions vary on whether they're "western" or not.
In my *Russian* understanding of the world, all mentioned above countries are not "Western," except for Australia, N.Z and granted - I don't know enough about countries of the former Eastern Block to identify them either way, except for may be Estonia, where my opinion is made up; no matter what their history is, my personal view is that they belong to what I identify as "Western cultures," because Nordic influence there is undeniable.

PS. I wish Eastern Europeans would chime in by now)))
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Old 07-15-2012, 09:58 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
33,841 posts, read 19,675,787 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Basically, yes.

In my *Russian* understanding of the world, all mentioned above countries are not "Western," except for Australia, N.Z and granted - I don't know enough about countries of the former Eastern Block to identify them either way, except for may be Estonia, where my opinion is made up; no matter what their history is, my personal view is that they belong to what I identify as "Western cultures," because Nordic influence there is undeniable.

PS. I wish Eastern Europeans would chime in by now)))
I would agree that the Baltic states are "Western". But it's a very fine line. Once you let the Baltics in the Western door, Poland & Czech Republic will be banging on the door. Then you have to decide what to do with them. And what about Slovenia?
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Old 07-15-2012, 10:03 PM
 
6,274 posts, read 4,584,129 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
I would agree that the Baltic states are "Western". But it's a very fine line. Once you let the Baltics in the Western door, Poland & Czech Republic will be banging on the door. Then you have to decide what to do with them. And what about Slovenia?
They might be "banging on the door," but the question is how the "classic" Westerners perceive them?
And how do they perceive themselves?
From my personal experience Polish folks are much closer to the definition of Eastern Europeans, although today they claim to be "Westerners." ( But then, again, some Russians love to claim that they are "westerners" as well, just because they've got rid of communist regime recently... )
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Old 07-15-2012, 10:44 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
33,841 posts, read 19,675,787 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
From my personal experience Polish folks are much closer to the definition of Eastern Europeans, although today they claim to be "Westerners." ( But then, again, some Russians love to claim that they are "westerners" as well, just because they've got rid of communist regime recently... )
Yes, well this is the problem, isn't it?
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Old 07-15-2012, 11:11 PM
 
5,190 posts, read 1,937,400 times
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western: places where you don't need to **** in a hole in the ground, or squat over a piece of ceramic on the floor
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Old 07-16-2012, 10:37 AM
 
985 posts, read 2,323,535 times
Reputation: 380
Cool Yunani & Siprus

"

I think you're right that Rosling is questioning the term "Western".

Here are just a few countries or areas that can be part of "the West" or "the Rest" depending on what criteria one takes:
Former Eastern Bloc, including former GDR
Japan and the Asian Tigers
Many Latin American countries
Australia & NZ
Israel
Large chunks of Africa, including the Arab countries in the North.
Turkey and other (former) allies of the Western Bloc in Asia
Philippines and other Christian areas in Asia


That's like half of the world where opinions vary on whether they're "western" or not.

"

The other thread reminded me to add Greece and Cyprus.
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Old 07-16-2012, 11:38 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
33,841 posts, read 19,675,787 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth-Kaunda View Post
western: places where you don't need to **** in a hole in the ground, or squat over a piece of ceramic on the floor
This is actually a pretty good criterion. It lets out all of Eastern Europe. And it resolves the Latin America question, too. Very simple.

um...but what about Greece? Do rural areas count? Even rural Sweden and Switzerland, with the highest living standards in the world, have outhouses.

Oh well. Back to the drawing board...
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Old 07-19-2012, 11:55 AM
 
6,274 posts, read 4,584,129 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Yes, well this is the problem, isn't it?
Well no, if you follow the logic)))

And the logic as I see it is following...
"Western culture" is not built on "Roman-Greek" basis/traditions - whatever you call it.
EUROPEAN culture however is built on them. What shaped Western cultures ( the way we know them in the modern world) is really Catholic church and church reformation that followed ( we are talking protestant countries here.) Therefore when we are talking Greece, we have to start talking about Eastern Europe already - mainly Russia/Ukraine, because Byzantine Empire inherited its culture mostly from Greece, and Roman Empire - well, from Rome)))
Now Russia that became continuation of the Byzantine Empire (after that Empire was destroyed by Islamic invasion) inherited Orthodox Church ( originally Greek)
Therefore you can see the direct ties here, which makes Greece really the *Eastern* European country, and since Russia was not interested in Greece - that's why it became something of "its own kind" in the West, that took it under its wing so to speak. But overall Greeks who were still living somewhere close to the Black Sea ( there were their colonies there, ) are considered by Russians as "Easterners" and they were blending well with Georgians for example as far as I remember. Same goes for Bulgarians/Serbs - they were all part of Byzantine Empire in the distant past.
That was the first initial split between European "East" and "West" - the second ( and most decisive of them all) came at the Age of Enlightenment. Russian Tzars/ the majority of aristocracy refused to follow the same ideas that Western upper class has perceived. The rest is history of course.

What was the true continuation of the Roman Empire?

Last edited by erasure; 07-19-2012 at 12:50 PM..
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Old 07-19-2012, 12:03 PM
 
6,274 posts, read 4,584,129 times
Reputation: 3351
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neutre View Post
"

I think you're right that Rosling is questioning the term "Western".

Here are just a few countries or areas that can be part of "the West" or "the Rest" depending on what criteria one takes:
Former Eastern Bloc, including former GDR
Japan and the Asian Tigers
Many Latin American countries
Australia & NZ
Israel
Large chunks of Africa, including the Arab countries in the North.
Turkey and other (former) allies of the Western Bloc in Asia
Philippines and other Christian areas in Asia


That's like half of the world where opinions vary on whether they're "western" or not.

"

The other thread reminded me to add Greece and Cyprus.
Eastern Germany is part of the West ( no matter how long it has been under Russians,) because originally it was part of Germany and Germany is a country of Reformation - an inseparable part of Western European history.
Australia& NZ ( the way we know it) have been founded by Brits and Brits are of course the Western Europeans - the epitome of it)))

The rest are "the rest" - meaning not "Westerners," although they can serve as "Western outlet" the extension, speaking in terms of economy.
The "West" is really the original "think tank" in Western Europe.

PS. You can put Israel in its own category though if you wish, ( in a way like Greece) for obvious reasons.
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