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Old 04-06-2013, 07:05 PM
 
994 posts, read 1,234,582 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mandem View Post
pakistan is one. pakistan is pretty poor, has FREE public education.. they get below 20% graduation rate.. very good. very efficient.. -_-



who will build the roads ?? thats a classic statist question. the simple answer is the community that lives there. if you lived in a small town and felt the town would benefit from new road, you get together as a community, those people in the community that would benefit from it ie shortens their commute, gives space to build more houses, would want to pay up, and for those that it won't, they won't have to.. it should be voluntary. that way, road building money isn't wasted, and spent ONLY if it will benefit enough people.

i don't really know what your mum's situation was, or why she was poor. if your mum was poor because she couldn't find a job.. thats thanks to government because the government taxes the S*** out of companies/businesses so they can't afford to hire more than what is absolutely necessary. there's also the sales tax that is charged for everything you buy so that hits you in the pocket. understand that the reason your mum is poor in the first place is because of the government !! the tax rates for everything is absurd and if affects everyone in the country, whether its directly or indirectly. and they tax ALL this, ruin everything for everyone to keep public schools running, and pay for your healthcare, and welfare.. its such an inefficient system, and money is being wasted !! and it gets worse because of the way the government is running things, its spending more than its getting so they print money, when they print money, YOUR money is worth LESS meaning you can buy less, that in a way is a tax in itself.. this way, everyone gets poorer but it affects the poor the most because they can't afford to get poorer than they already are, and people that WERE almost poor, become poor!!.. in my ideal world, government's only jobs are to protect peoples rights through court, police, military.. and thats it.. . that will allow companies and people to keep almost all of their hard earned money to do more productive stuff with their money rather than give it to government through coercion and allow them splash it on such an inefficient infrastructure. in my ideal world, everyone including your mum, have a chance to thrive. its completely and voluntarily their choice to take it, no one forces anyone to do anything.. thats true freedom. in my ideal world, there is no tax, what you earn is what you get. if you want something done on a grand scale, you get together with your community and get it done, without force and only if its worth the benefits.

as for poverty, 15% of the USA is still in poverty. public schools = fail on many levels.
Right. This is your idea for how things could be done better. I'm not sure I follow you all the way, but it's great you have all these thoughts - I have lots of ideas about how I think the world could be organised better, too.

But I think what we've actually been talking about is HOW THINGS THAT ACTUALLY EXIST HAVE BEEN ACHIEVED. The primary and secondary education of Steve Jobs, and those of most of his employees and customers, were, for better or worse, provided by government-funded schools. The roads and rails on which his products were taken around the countries of the world were, again for better or worse, in many cases built by governments. It doesn't really matter that you think private enterprise could have provided these things better - for the time being, it was governments that did it. I happen to think that in the future, workers' collectives will build something better than the iPad - but I still can't deny that the iPad I'm typing on is the work of Apple Inc., not of some hypothetical future utopia.
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Old 04-06-2013, 11:18 PM
 
185 posts, read 472,448 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George & Bill View Post
Right. This is your idea for how things could be done better. I'm not sure I follow you all the way, but it's great you have all these thoughts - I have lots of ideas about how I think the world could be organised better, too.

But I think what we've actually been talking about is HOW THINGS THAT ACTUALLY EXIST HAVE BEEN ACHIEVED. The primary and secondary education of Steve Jobs, and those of most of his employees and customers, were, for better or worse, provided by government-funded schools. The roads and rails on which his products were taken around the countries of the world were, again for better or worse, in many cases built by governments. It doesn't really matter that you think private enterprise could have provided these things better - for the time being, it was governments that did it. I happen to think that in the future, workers' collectives will build something better than the iPad - but I still can't deny that the iPad I'm typing on is the work of Apple Inc., not of some hypothetical future utopia.
what governments have done so far has already happened like you said. however it seems like your giving credit to the government for good thats already happened. thats like when a car crashes into the back of your car with no fault of yours, and you say "well, the front end is still perfect though.. all thanks to you. thanks" (with no sarcasm).. you're basically giving credit to someone for not COMPLETELY writing off your car, or in the governments case, the whole economic structure of the country and the welfare of its people.. especially the poor.
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Old 04-07-2013, 12:58 AM
 
1,496 posts, read 1,850,909 times
Reputation: 1222
Quote:
Originally Posted by mandem View Post
are you suggesting that steve jobs' success wouldn't have been if it wasn't for government ?
Yes. Even Steve Jobs would agree with that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mandem View Post
roads and railways existed WAY before government existed..
no they didn't

Quote:
Originally Posted by mandem View Post
minimum wage = higher unemployment.
no it doesn't. See San Francisco: $10.55 minimum wage and 6.5% unemployment. 3% lower than the rest of the state and a $3 higher minimum wage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mandem View Post
funding schools = government controls a monopoly meaning less competition between private schools meaning lower quality education overall.
huh? public education works very well in some districts and not not so well in others.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mandem View Post
creating new laws = stripping everyone of their natural rights. etc the list is endless
not as endless as your crazy theories
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Old 04-07-2013, 04:58 AM
 
994 posts, read 1,234,582 times
Reputation: 806
Quote:
Originally Posted by mandem View Post
what governments have done so far has already happened like you said. however it seems like your giving credit to the government for good thats already happened. thats like when a car crashes into the back of your car with no fault of yours, and you say "well, the front end is still perfect though.. all thanks to you. thanks" (with no sarcasm).. you're basically giving credit to someone for not COMPLETELY writing off your car, or in the governments case, the whole economic structure of the country and the welfare of its people.. especially the poor.
Except that the state of education and infrastructure in the rich world isn't analogous to a partially written-off car - we have the best roads and railways we ever have, and almost universal literacy.

A good analogy for what you're saying would be if someone drove from one side of America to the other, and on reaching their destination announced 'AND I DID THAT WITHOUT ANY HELP FROM MY CAR!!!'. When the passenger points out that it was the car that took them the whole way, they would say, 'Yeah but it took HOURS!!!'
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Old 04-07-2013, 10:27 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,579 posts, read 86,764,762 times
Reputation: 36643
Quote:
Originally Posted by mandem View Post
pakistan is one. pakistan is pretty poor, has FREE public education.. they get below 20% graduation rate.. very good. very efficient.. -_-
Even if I granted that your single example out of 250 nations proves your point (while 249 prove mine), Pakistan has free public education only in theory. Less than 2% of GDP is spent on education (ranking 126th out of 132 reporting nations), and there is no enforcement of mandatory attendance, especially for girls. Less than 20% of Pakistani girls actually attend school for the mandatory 10 years. And Taliban-held areas actually ban girls from going to school at all.

By law, Pakistan requires free and mandatory public education up to age 16, but in practice, there are very few schools in existence, the schools get little or no funding, and attendance rates are low. And you want EVEN LESS in the USA, except for those rich enough to pay themselves for their children's education. Very good, Very efficient.

Last edited by jtur88; 04-07-2013 at 10:36 AM..
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Old 04-07-2013, 10:49 AM
 
185 posts, read 472,448 times
Reputation: 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldous9 View Post
"Yes. Even Steve Jobs would agree with that."
Steve Jobs railed against government regulations, teachers’ unions - NYPOST.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldous9 View Post
"no they didn't"
first railway in the USA built in 1830. government took control of the railway system in 1862

roads were built in 1893 to accomodate wagons and bicycles. government took control of them in 1916

No President Obama, It Was Private Business That Made Our Roads And Bridges Possible - Forbes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldous9 View Post
"no it doesn't. See San Francisco: $10.55 minimum wage and 6.5% unemployment. 3% lower than the rest of the state and a $3 higher minimum wage."
6.5% is acceptable to you ?


Does the Minimum Wage Hurt Workers? - YouTube
video by professor Antony Davies on minimum wage, who has a PHD in economics. where's your PHD in economics ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldous9 View Post
"huh? public education works very well in some districts and not not so well in others."
why is that acceptable to you ?? you pay billions in taxes every year to 'help poorer people', but if they don't benefit from it... you think "oh well, thats life, some do good, some don't" ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldous9 View Post
"not as endless as your crazy theories"
they'd seem 'crazy' to a statist that thinks all is well and jolly. was the 2008 credit crunch not a big enough clue ?? maybe the $16 trillion debt.. or maybe the HIGH unemployment rate ?? .. the ridiculous poverty rate in a so-called 'first world country' (sri lanka has a lower poverty rate, which is a 3rd world country)..

Last edited by mandem; 04-07-2013 at 11:10 AM..
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Old 04-07-2013, 02:37 PM
 
994 posts, read 1,234,582 times
Reputation: 806
Quote:
Originally Posted by mandem View Post
Steve Jobs railed against government regulations, teachers’ unions - NYPOST.com



first railway in the USA built in 1830. government took control of the railway system in 1862

roads were built in 1893 to accomodate wagons and bicycles. government took control of them in 1916

No President Obama, It Was Private Business That Made Our Roads And Bridges Possible - Forbes



6.5% is acceptable to you ?


Does the Minimum Wage Hurt Workers? - YouTube
video by professor Antony Davies on minimum wage, who has a PHD in economics. where's your PHD in economics ?



why is that acceptable to you ?? you pay billions in taxes every year to 'help poorer people', but if they don't benefit from it... you think "oh well, thats life, some do good, some don't" ??



they'd seem 'crazy' to a statist that thinks all is well and jolly. was the 2008 credit crunch not a big enough clue ?? maybe the $16 trillion debt.. or maybe the HIGH unemployment rate ?? .. the ridiculous poverty rate in a so-called 'first world country' (sri lanka has a lower poverty rate, which is a 3rd world country)..
In the NY Post link (great info source BTW ), Jobs says that "the education system should be reformed so that principals can hire and fire teachers based on merit, and keep their schools open until 6 p.m. for 11 months a year" - I don't see anything about him saying schools and roads should be privatised

You're also having slight trouble keeping up with the claims you've made. You said that 'roads and rails were around way before governments even existed' - which clearly they weren't, as America and most other countries had governments well before the 19th century. But you do point out that when roads and rails were first built, this was done privately - which is true, but not the same as the claim you made
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Old 04-07-2013, 06:51 PM
 
18,074 posts, read 25,173,988 times
Reputation: 16795
Quote:
Originally Posted by mandem View Post
i can't help but admire how the USA got its independence from the british empire, and the principles of liberty, tolerance and freedom that it was founded upon. But we all know the USA of today is NOTHING like the USA of then. there's no freedom, everything is taxed, everything is control by the government, etc etc. which countries 1st world countries have the least government intervention today ?
No country succeeds without strong government intervention.
Who do you think built the train and highway network that makes the US such a great country today?

Who do you think pulled Japan and Germany out of its ashes after WWII?
South Korea is a great success story, thanks to huge amounts of protectionism.

Every country that you find with small government intervention is then run by the elite business class and instantly turned into a banana republic where the rich have 2-3 maids cleaning their house making $1/day.
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Old 04-07-2013, 07:07 PM
 
185 posts, read 472,448 times
Reputation: 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by George & Bill View Post
In the NY Post link (great info source BTW ), Jobs says that "the education system should be reformed so that principals can hire and fire teachers based on merit, and keep their schools open until 6 p.m. for 11 months a year" - I don't see anything about him saying schools and roads should be privatised

You're also having slight trouble keeping up with the claims you've made. You said that 'roads and rails were around way before governments even existed' - which clearly they weren't, as America and most other countries had governments well before the 19th century. But you do point out that when roads and rails were first built, this was done privately - which is true, but not the same as the claim you made
Jobs has his own opinions on what should be changed and how the country should be run etc. he may not have minarchist beliefs, but he is most definitely not pro-government like the guy i was quoting suggested. Jobs, however, is spot on to question the current system and his suggestion would definitely be a step forward but it is still flawed in that the government is funding the system.

i may have said that a few times, my bad . what i meant was before government started to control the roads and railway system. pretty much saying that we don't need government to build and maintain roads and railways. i'm not anti-government, they can be very effective if they only due what they are suppose to (protect rights), however i'm not a fan of the current, theres not other word for it, dictatorship regime.
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Old 04-09-2013, 12:57 PM
 
994 posts, read 1,234,582 times
Reputation: 806
Quote:
Originally Posted by mandem View Post
Jobs has his own opinions on what should be changed and how the country should be run etc. he may not have minarchist beliefs, but he is most definitely not pro-government like the guy i was quoting suggested. Jobs, however, is spot on to question the current system and his suggestion would definitely be a step forward but it is still flawed in that the government is funding the system.

i may have said that a few times, my bad . what i meant was before government started to control the roads and railway system. pretty much saying that we don't need government to build and maintain roads and railways. i'm not anti-government, they can be very effective if they only due what they are suppose to (protect rights), however i'm not a fan of the current, theres not other word for it, dictatorship regime.
Well it seems we don't really know what Mr Jobs (RIP) thought about the fundamentals of government - no evidence has been put forward on this thread to suggest he thought governments should get out of schooling, or road-building, for example.

As I say, maybe we don't need governments to build and run roads and railways - but the fact is, the modern infrastructure on which business currently relies - America's interstates, or the European high-speed rail network, for example - were built by governments.

Saying that we don't need governments to build roads and rails because at one point it was done privately is like saying we don't need corporations to make computers, because at one point people used to build them in their garden shed.
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