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Old 01-02-2013, 09:18 AM
 
Location: Metro Phoenix
11,048 posts, read 16,812,223 times
Reputation: 12949

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Quote:
Originally Posted by drknoble View Post
If you'd ever went to school in the US, you'd see how silly your post looks. The US pledge is so harmless, and unimportant to most Americans during school and after. Not to mention the fact that the pledge promotes democracy, republicanism, unity, freedom, and justice for all. These are all great institutions that all progressive people in world would want promoted.

There's nothing wrong with Americans saying the pledge. During the last olympics, did the Russian gold winners not acknowledge their country during the anthem?
From grade school onwards, there were always a few kids who didn't rise for the pledge due to religious reasons. No one cared, students or administrators.

Quote:
And on your point about nationalism, the US probably publicly criticizes itself more than any other country, we air out our dirty laundry for the world to see, and then make a hollywood movie and sell it to our friends and enemies so that everyone knows our faults. What's funny is America never get's praised for the negative criticisms we do of ourselves on a daily bases. But if we dare acknowledge the positives we do, we're labeled ignorant, arrogant, overly nationalist hicks.
This song was released and became a hit during the Bush administration:

Nine Inch Nails - Survivalism (Uncensored) - YouTube

So was this:

Nine Inch Nails - The Hand That Feeds - YouTube

And this:

Green Day - American Idiot [OFFICIAL VIDEO] - YouTube

And this:

NOFX - Franco Un-American - YouTube

And let's not forget these screechy fellows:

Rage Against The Machine - Sleep Now In The Fire - YouTube

FTR: I think Greenday, NOFX, and RATM suck - they all have that nasally/snotty thing going on that I can't listen to for too long. But, the point stays the same...

 
Old 01-02-2013, 09:20 AM
 
558 posts, read 671,586 times
Reputation: 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielj72 View Post
I live in the USA and Im nationalistic. I support kids saying the pledge. Do I think the USA is better than other nations?? no I dont but Im glad I live here. All these folks in here slamming US pride and nationalism are also likely just as nationalistic toward thier nations too. The real reason we are hated is simply because we are large and influencial. Also we have such an open society that we show the world who we are, good and bad. Our societys flaws are put out on public display with no attempt to hide them. This fact makes it easy to criticize us for our flaws. In reality other nations have as many if not more social and political problems than we do, but they are hidden by thier goverments. Now to address the issue of our foriegn policy, well obviously much of it is intended to benefit the US so its going to upset other nations no matter what. Have we made mistakes, supported people we shouldnt have?? yes we have made mistakes. Overall our foriegn policy has done far more good than it has wrong. Considering half the world is ruled by tyrants and dictators its to be expected that many will oppose our policy. Europeans like to fancy themselves progressive pacifists, and us cowboy Americans to be warmongers, however 70 years ago Europeans had started a war the likes never seen in human history. I will not be lectured on warmongering by Europeans. I have been to Europe, loved the people and the culture there, but nothing makes me angrier than hearing them badmouth my nation for being of all things "warmongering". Hundreds of thousands of Americans died in two world wars started there, and we had nothing to do with starting them. Many of the wars we have been involved in or dragged into were fought to help others (first gulf war, Serbia), some to protect ourselves or respond to our having been attacked. (WW2, Iraq 2, Afghanistan, war of 1812) A few of our wars were wrong, and ill acknowledge that. (mexican war, Spanish American etc). A few of are wars were well intended but were folly like Vietnam, Somolia. I truely hope we can enjoy a long stretch of peace, but it seems some tyrant is always looking to provoke us, or as the nation with the most powerfull military we feel obligated to help those who are victims of tyrants. Most of our interventions are the result of us being asked to help those who are being bullied by thier goverments or thier neighboring goverments. Libya is the last example of that, and for that matter our European allies took part in that too, in fact they led it. If we sat by and did nothing about humanitarian disasters when we have the power to make things better we would also be hated for that. Im not sure we can win here. In the end I think many people just enjoy hating America and that will never change. I love my country and I am not ashamed of it, and also know that Americans do far less "hating" toward the rest of the world than the world directs at it.
I agree 100%.

America criticizes itself so much, at times it gets irritating, but I would rather that then lie to ourselves and not address our real problems.

And, to avoid hypocrisy Europeans should be very, very cautious on how they criticize the US. This a group that has caused the most wars, invaded and conquered the most lands, devastated and killed the most people in the history of the world. In comparison, the US is like 100 times more peaceful.
 
Old 01-02-2013, 09:31 AM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
27,423 posts, read 28,498,647 times
Reputation: 24953
What is wrong with saying the pledge of allegiance? It expresses loyalty and pride towards the country you live in and creates a shared sense of optimism and purpose in learning. I WANT my children to recite the pledge of allegiance in school just like I did when I was growing up.
 
Old 01-02-2013, 09:34 AM
 
Location: Metro Phoenix
11,048 posts, read 16,812,223 times
Reputation: 12949
Oh, I forgot, there was a movie, too:


Team America - YouTube
 
Old 01-02-2013, 09:37 AM
 
558 posts, read 671,586 times
Reputation: 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by 415_s2k View Post
From grade school onwards, there were always a few kids who didn't rise for the pledge due to religious reasons. No one cared, students or administrators.


This song was released and became a hit during the Bush administration:

Nine Inch Nails - Survivalism (Uncensored) - YouTube

So was this:

Nine Inch Nails - The Hand That Feeds - YouTube

And this:

Green Day - American Idiot [OFFICIAL VIDEO] - YouTube

And this:

NOFX - Franco Un-American - YouTube

And let's not forget these screechy fellows:

Rage Against The Machine - Sleep Now In The Fire - YouTube

FTR: I think Greenday, NOFX, and RATM suck - they all have that nasally/snotty thing going on that I can't listen to for too long. But, the point stays the same...
Exactly, we constantly criticize ourselves on TV, Movies, Music, books, magazines, online,etc...Then we get criticized by Europeans, Canadians, Australians, etc on their high horse. I mean, When was the last time you saw a thread created by Europeans titled "America criticizes itself too much" or "America Gets criticized too much?" So I find it funny that when we acknowledge our success amidst all the negative rhetoric, the hatred comes spilling out.
 
Old 01-02-2013, 09:59 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
2,885 posts, read 5,231,068 times
Reputation: 3425
Quote:
Originally Posted by drknoble View Post
It's not like they have a choice. The people of European monarchy countries have never voted for their monarchies to be there, nor will they ever get to. Their monarch stays in power for an endless term, and there's no stated mechanism to remove them. No citizen from a true free democratic country would ever look at a monarchy as a good thing.
Of course we have a choice. We could get rid of the monarchy today if we wanted to since the monarch has no real political power whatsoever. The monarch's role is constrained by the Constitution and the democratically elected governments are free to curtail or expand his/her functions without any input from the monarch (and in fact, this happens all the time). Many Europeans prefer a ceremonial Head of State - whether it's a monarch as in the UK or a president as in Germany - and there are good reasons for that. If public opinion was against having a monarchy, we could do as the Italians did back in 1946 and push for a referendum (which ended the monarchy there). This is unlikely to happen though because European monarchies enjoy wide popular support - according to a recent survey around 80% of the population in my country prefer a monarchy over a republic.

Your mistake is projecting the American model onto other countries. I'm sure you believe the American political system is objectively the most desirable but I can assure you that many people around the world would beg to differ. I did a Comparative Politics course in University with students from all over Europe and at the end of the course, our professor asked us which political system we thought was the best. The parliamentary republic (e.g. Germany) was #1, the parliamentary constitutional monarchy (e.g. the Netherlands) was #2, the semi-presidential republic (e.g. France) was #3 and the presidential republic (e.g. the US) was #4 (these were the only four systems we studied in depth). I'm sure if you asked the exact same question in the US, a vast majority would say the presidential republic was the best system and the constitutional monarchy was the worst. I can understand that because a constitutional monarchy would never work in the US for cultural and historical reasons but it does work for us.
 
Old 01-02-2013, 10:09 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
2,885 posts, read 5,231,068 times
Reputation: 3425
Quote:
Originally Posted by drknoble View Post
Nothing in life is black and white.

Appreciating the good qualities and achievements of where you're from or live is natural and healthy as long as you don't go over board.
I would call this patriotism. Nationalism has more negative connotations as being excessive and exclusive (see definition).
 
Old 01-02-2013, 10:25 AM
 
Location: Leeds, UK
22,118 posts, read 29,517,076 times
Reputation: 8819
Quote:
Originally Posted by drknoble View Post
And, to avoid hypocrisy Europeans should be very, very cautious on how they criticize the US. This a group that has caused the most wars, invaded and conquered the most lands, devastated and killed the most people in the history of the world. In comparison, the US is like 100 times more peaceful.
Oh FFS. First, you saved us from German occupation, now you are saying we should not criticise the US because of what our ancestors did.

You cannot be seriously referring to events hundreds of years ago that have no bearing whatsoever on the population today. What exactly are you trying to prove here?
 
Old 01-02-2013, 10:35 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
2,885 posts, read 5,231,068 times
Reputation: 3425
Quote:
Originally Posted by drknoble View Post
I agree 100%.

America criticizes itself so much, at times it gets irritating, but I would rather that then lie to ourselves and not address our real problems.

And, to avoid hypocrisy Europeans should be very, very cautious on how they criticize the US. This a group that has caused the most wars, invaded and conquered the most lands, devastated and killed the most people in the history of the world. In comparison, the US is like 100 times more peaceful.
It makes no sense to blame Europeans for injustices that were committed before they were even born. It's equivalent to saying Americans should be very cautious on how they criticize racism because the US had institutionalized racism in the past.

Also, there is nothing unique about Americans criticizing their own country. People in other countries complain as much, if not more, about their government and country as Americans do.
 
Old 01-02-2013, 10:38 AM
 
558 posts, read 671,586 times
Reputation: 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by LindavG View Post
Of course we have a choice. We could get rid of the monarchy today if we wanted to since the monarch has no real political power whatsoever. The monarch's role is constrained by the Constitution and the democratically elected governments are free to curtail or expand his/her functions without any input from the monarch (and in fact, this happens all the time). Many Europeans prefer a ceremonial Head of State - whether it's a monarch as in the UK or a president as in Germany - and there are good reasons for that. If public opinion was against having a monarchy, we could do as the Italians did back in 1946 and push for a referendum (which ended the monarchy there). This is unlikely to happen though because European monarchies enjoy wide popular support - according to a recent survey around 80% of the population in my country prefer a monarchy over a republic.

Your mistake is projecting the American model onto other countries. I'm sure you believe the American political system is objectively the most desirable but I can assure you that many people around the world would beg to differ. I did a Comparative Politics course in University with students from all over Europe and at the end of the course, our professor asked us which political system we thought was the best. The parliamentary republic (e.g. Germany) was #1, the parliamentary constitutional monarchy (e.g. the Netherlands) was #2, the semi-presidential republic (e.g. France) was #3 and the presidential republic (e.g. the US) was #4 (these were the only four systems we studied in depth). I'm sure if you asked the exact same question in the US, a vast majority would say the presidential republic was the best system and the constitutional monarchy was the worst. I can understand that because a constitutional monarchy would never work in the US for cultural and historical reasons but it does work for us.
You never had a choice, point to the vote in history your countrymen gave to grant the Monarchy power for an endless term

Because the monarchy's term of power never ends, by what stated mechanism can the monarchy (specifically) be removed? If it's not stated in law, then it doesn't exist. In the US Constitution, it is stated that our President holds office for a limited 4 year term, and can be impeached by Congress at anytime.

You all believe it works for you because you were taught that your whole lives, which government is going to teach it's citizens that the government is wrong? If you're country had to do it again, the people would never support a monarchy in any form, and would become a democratic republic. If the US had to do it again, we'd become a democratic republic, as we are today.

Unlike the American model, the constitutional monarchy model has an undemocratic contradiction. You can not be a true democracy when your government is described as a "monarchy."
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