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Old 10-11-2018, 03:10 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
20,598 posts, read 25,661,997 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanLuis View Post
When spoken clearly I can understand quite a bit of Italian on the radio. When I used to hear Italians speak in Montreal I couldn't understand very much..

The difference between the two could be because people who immigrated a long time ago or maybe never even lived in Italy, often tend to speak a very colloquial variant of the language.
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Old 10-11-2018, 08:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
For an example of the impact of official status: Icelandic is official in Iceland and has less than 400,000 speakers, whereas Catalan has 8 million speakers and only has semi-official or officious status (if we're not counting tiny Andorra). Guess which language has more computer programs available in it? Icelandic. By far.

Oh Acajack,
I think you're doing big injustice towards Catalan and I came here to say how glorious Catalan is and write positive things about Catalonia.


Unlike Hispanic culture in general, Catalan culture heavily values education and science and Catalonia is the highest developped part of the Ibero world, together with Navarre and Basque Country which are all by their culture neither Hispanic and are distinct. (And Madrid is only so rich because it steals money from Catalonia, Navarre & Basque Country.)


The Ibero world is hereby defined as all Spanish, Portuguese and Catalan-speaking countries.

Catalan people are very intelligent and among the most sophisticated in the Romance-speaking world. Not only in science, but also in arts Catalonia is very impressive. Catalonia is more avant-garde than Québec.


You judge languages by official status, I judge them by other indicators, I use the number of wikipedia articles and wikipedia edits as an indicator for relevance.


I'm going to tell you an information that might surprise you:
The Catalan language was the third language of the entire world to get a wikipedia language version. The first was English and the second was German.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_Wikipedia

English is the modern ultra language of science and German was the historic ultra language of science and still is number two.
The fact that Catalan managed to become the third language to have a wikipedia version on its own, shows that Catalan people are interested into sharing and collecting information.

So when you say that Icelandic gets preferential treatment, I'd like to remind you that the Catalan wikipedia existed before the French wikipedia.

The Catalan wikipedia has 590,000 articles and 20 million page edits.
That is more than the Turkish, Romanian, Czech, Danish and Bulgarian wikipedia.

I think this is quite impressive for a small language like Catalan that has to rival with Spanish within the same state.

My smartphone has Catalan language settings available to choose from. I wanted to write that Catalan is the strongest language in Europe that isn't recognized as a state language, but since Andorra got Catalan as an official state language, I can't write that. Yes Andorra is tiny...but Iceland's population is also below half a million and both seem often only to be mentioned because they are so small. So, Andorra derives much of its attention exactly because it is so small and that's why it can be put i the same category as Iceland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...#Detailed_list
Wikipedia-wise Portuguese is in the same league as Polish and Polish is even slightly above Portuguese wikipedia.
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Old 10-11-2018, 08:59 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
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That was not the point. I love Catalonia, Catalans and their language.

But Icelandic is still less threatened than Catalan.
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Old 10-12-2018, 05:42 PM
 
330 posts, read 94,435 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I believe French is an official language of over 30 countries in the world and has a large number of speakers in a few more like Morocco and Algeria where it is not official.
Portuguese I believe is official in less than 10 countries.
Even if some of these countries are small the fact that French has so many more does contribute to the language's range (rayonnement) to a non-negligeable degree.
Another thing is that French is official in four first world countries (France, Canada, Belgium and Switzerland) and one of those countries is a second tier superpower, and a permanent member of the UN Security Council.
Portuguese's only developed country is Portugal and it is a small one at that.



There are multiple indicators to judge a language; like politics, science & entertainment.

The majority language in Canada is English, in Belgium it is Dutch and in Switzerland it is German.

These countries have French as their official language but since French native speakers do not constitute a majority there, these countries use mainly English in international communication and correspondence with other countries and only sometimes French. And we don't even know which language(s) francophone African countries are using in international correspondence, and in which dimensions. The majority of francophone countries has multiple official languages !!!! The francophone world is more like Canada and less like France: The majority of its inhabitants has no knowledge of French and it does not imply that French is the lanugage of preference at the national level.


I watch the Eurovision Songcontest annually and Belgium and Switzerland only sometimes announce their results in French, despite French being an offical language alongside with French at the ESC and giving Belgium and Switzerland the full right to only use French.
This year the ESC hit rock bottom because I think for the first time ever, not a single French word was spoken by the moderators, who in the past at least symbolically used some French phrases, and ironically the ESC was hosted in Portugal.

Furhermore, in the 21st century a Portuguese-language song has won the ESC, while not a single French song has won it in this century, despite numerous francophone countries. What does this show? It shows that French fails to be a relevant language in entertainment. I think there's a greater probability of a Portuguese song to make it big in the US than a French song.

The fact that a language is official, means little. Irish is also an official language in Ireland, does that mean that Irish is big in Ireland and people can talk to you in Irish? In Ireland not even the government employees have good knowledge of Irish ... German is an official language of Belgium, does that mean that German is big in Belgium and that youl'll get served in German in Belgium? Official status pretends a reality that is perhaps only present in the constitution and not beyond that.


+ I wouldn't even consider Portugal to be a developped nation. More like a country between second world and first world. Switzerland has less inhabitants than Portugal, but its GDP is 3x times as high as Portugal. There are worlds between Portugal and Switzerland and I would not put them in the same category. If Portugal is considered first world, then Canada and Switzerland must be considered as premium VIP world countries.
And the GDP per capita of Canada, Germany and Belgium is twice as high as the one of Portugal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...al)_per_capita
I would classify Portugal and Spain as lower developped countries, with Western - Central Europe as upper developped countries.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post

Portuguese has more first language speakers but they are highly concentrated in one country.

French speakers both first and second language are more scattered all over the world.

French actually has a bigger global geographic spread than Spanish does, I would say.

I disagree that Portuguese is more concentrated in one country than French.
In my opinion, I don't judge the world defined in a solely political context with finite borders, I judge the world in a globalized context with transnational processes taking place. That means one country does influence the culture of other countries and they are not isolated. Thus the whole francophone world should be seen from above in its hierarchy, just like the lusophone world.

70% of TV channels watched in Francophone Switzerland come from outside Switzerland, from abroad, of this 70% nearly all is from France.
https://www.srgssr.ch/fileadmin/dam/...16-2017_fr.pdf
In francophone Belgium, 45% of TV channesl watched come from abroad, nearly all of them also from France.

In Dutch-speaking Belgium, this share on the contrary does not exceed 30%.
The media landscape of francophone Europe is dominated by France, thus the flow of ideas derives from France and infiltrates into Switzerland and Belgium.

France is the centre of francophone Europe with no counterweight, just like Anglophone Canada is no counterweight to US-America because it consumes majority-wise US-American media.

Québec has distinct media that are strong in Québec - and Québec is the only territory within the francophone world that has a STRONG media landscape that does not mainly import from France its ideas.

And when it comes to Africa, actually in the past I read about several festivals and conferences there were organized by people from Africa, for people in Africa, with the subjects being topics relevant only to Africa..and guess where these conferences were hosted? In Paris! Not in Africa.

Francophone Europe and francophone Africa is hyper-centralized on Paris.

The only relevant original players of the francophone world are France and Québec, the rest either imports from Paris, is dependent on Paris culture-wise or does not produce substantially on its own!

So, it's France and Québec.

And the lusophone world? Here is Brazil the big player that infiltrates the rest of the lusophone world, with the notable exeption of Portugal -which just like Québec- has a STRONG media landscape on its own. So, for the lusophone world, it's Brazil + Portugal.

So...That's a tie! In my opinion the francophone world is equally centralised with the lusophone world. It is not less centralised.

If we look closer, at the national level, then I think that the lusophone world is even more decentralised (which is better), because in Brazil you got Rio de Janeiro, Sao Paolo and Brasilia - THREE main poles of gravity within the lusophone world, but in the francophone world there is only PARIS as the only main pole of gravity and the rest is second-tier.

The Hispanic world has a much greater global widespread because it has true multiple centres all across Latin America and Europe that do not depend on a single city.

The global widespread of French is massively distorted because its main source and centre of gravity is Paris. The francophone world is Paris-centered and does in my opinion not deserve the honourable title "globally distributed" - it is extremely unequally globally distribued with unequal actors and much of francophone Africa depends on Paris (and recently Beijing).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacanegro View Post
[/i][/b]

Brasil and their 200+ million might disagree with that characterization.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...al)_per_capita

Excusez-moi but there are worlds between Brazil and the developped world. Don't forget that while Brazil keeps developping, the developped world also keeps developping and setting the bar higher....


Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Nothing against Brasil but I would not classify it as a developed first world country. Not yet anyway.
I wouldn't even classify Portugal as a developed first world country.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NJmann View Post
Is this even a question?

French is spoken by dozens of countries in almost all continents and is besides English the official language of the UN.

Portuguese is basically only spoken in Brazil and Portugal.

WRONG! Portuguese is spoken officially on all continents excluding North America and Antarctica - its number of continents is equal to the number of continents that French has - ; and even though Portuguese is only spoken by an exorbitantly low numbers of speakers in Asia and Oceania, French is also only spoken by an exorbitantly low numbers of speakers in South America and Oceania.

Don't forget that if French has the moral right to declare a continent as having a French presence based on the fact of a French-speaking micro island or 200,000 speakers on a continent of 500 million speakers, so does Portuguese also have the same moral right to declare its historic collection of small entities across the world as GLOBAL.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AFP View Post
If one is interested in Brazil, Angola, Cape Verde, Sao Tome, Mozambique, Goa, Macau and Timor Leste then learn Portuguese.
Exactly. Examples for lusophone countries other than Portugal and Brazil.

Last edited by QuebecOpec; 10-12-2018 at 06:02 PM..
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Old 10-12-2018, 06:03 PM
 
Location: DC metropolitan area
568 posts, read 178,338 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuebecOpec View Post
(And Madrid is only so rich because it steals money from Catalonia, Navarre & Basque Country.)
I love Catalan and Catalonia, too.

Madrid does take more from Catalonia than it gives back, which is one reason Catalans want independence. However, the Basque Country has fiscal autonomy vis-à-vis Madrid that Catalans can only dream for. If Madrid would give Catalonia this same autonomy, I bet support for Catalan independence would go down... but can Madrid afford untethering itself from the Catalan cash cow?!!!:https://www.reuters.com/article/us-s...-idUSKBN1CE2G6.

Before going to Barcelona a few years ago, I studied up on Catalan and was actually able to use it there... although the main language of the city proper is Spanish, I think. In some ways, Catalan looks like a bridge or cross between French and Spanish. They say it is closely related to southern France's Occitan (langue d'oc).

Last edited by 2ner; 10-12-2018 at 06:22 PM..
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Old 10-12-2018, 06:20 PM
 
330 posts, read 94,435 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ner View Post
I love Catalan and Catalonia, too.

Madrid does take more from Catalonia than it gives back, which is one reason Catalans want independence. However, the Basque Country has fiscal autonomy vis-à-vis Madrid that Catalans can only dream for. If Madrid would give Catalonia this same autonomy, I bet support for Catalan independence would go down... but can Madrid afford untethering itself from the Catalan cash cow?!!!:https://www.reuters.com/article/us-s...-idUSKBN1CE2G6.

Before going to Barcelona a few years ago, I studied up on Catalan and was actually able to use it there... although the main language of the city proper is Spanish, I think. In some ways, Catalan looks like a bridge or cross between French and Spanish. They say it is closely related to southern France's Occitan (langue d'oc).
moi, j'adore aussi la Catalunya. Maybe we and Acajack can open a club.
Madrid is an evil, mean imperial power that behaves like Ottawa and has been exploiting Catalonia for centuries now, all it can do is taking money away from Barcelona and invest it in the capital.

Madrid would be a poor second-world capital IF it didn't had rich Northern Spain & money redistribution.


It's likely that support for Catalan independence would go down...we can observe it in South Tyrol where the idea of joining Austria is popular but there is no big probability for independence or joining Austria because South Tyrol is not rob-rifled by Italy.

It's a shame that France & Spain destroyed the Basque language, a truly unique language. Basque Country deserves independence, too.

Spanish only became the main language in Barca after decades of rest-Spain and Latin America in-migration...we can observe the same isutation in Montréal, where Ottawa uses masss migration to make Montréal more English just like Madrid uses mass migration to make Barcelona more Spanish. Both have the same goal: To keep the provinces in the same country and wipe out local culture. Shame on Ottawa and shame on Madrid!

Barcelona could be the sparkling avant-garde world-leading ascending aura abstract arts metropolis of the Iberian peninsula, if it wasn't robbed by Madrid.

Time is running out for Catalonia because the longer Catalonia is in Spain, the more it will get robbed and milked by Madrid and Madrid will get stornger and stronger, the aim of Madrid is clearly to make Catalunya dependent on it like Ottawa did.
I wish independence for Catalunya! They deserve it after centuries of oppression and foreign control. And yes, Catalan is a more beautiful language than Spanish (..which is not hard)! Closer to Occitan.
Yet, Portuguese is also more aesthetic than Spanish.
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Old 10-12-2018, 06:44 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
20,598 posts, read 25,661,997 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuebecOpec View Post

I disagree that Portuguese is more concentrated in one country than French.
)
About 85% of all the people in the world who have any knowledge of Portuguese live in a single country: Brazil! How can one not call that highly concentrated?
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Old 10-12-2018, 06:49 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
20,598 posts, read 25,661,997 times
Reputation: 8109
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ner View Post
I love Catalan and Catalonia, too.

Madrid does take more from Catalonia than it gives back, which is one reason Catalans want independence. However, the Basque Country has fiscal autonomy vis-à-vis Madrid that Catalans can only dream for. If Madrid would give Catalonia this same autonomy, I bet support for Catalan independence would go down... but can Madrid afford untethering itself from the Catalan cash cow?!!!:https://www.reuters.com/article/us-s...-idUSKBN1CE2G6.

Before going to Barcelona a few years ago, I studied up on Catalan and was actually able to use it there... although the main language of the city proper is Spanish, I think. In some ways, Catalan looks like a bridge or cross between French and Spanish. They say it is closely related to southern France's Occitan (langue d'oc).
I didn't study Catalan but of course knew about the situation there. It was actually quite fun to try to dabble in the language.
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Old 10-12-2018, 07:11 PM
 
330 posts, read 94,435 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
About 85% of all the people in the world who have any knowledge of Portuguese live in a single country: Brazil! How can one not call that highly concentrated?

It is highly concentrated but it is not more concentrated than the francophone world because Paris, France is the reference point of the francophone world. Even though francophone speakers may live outside of France, they (1) consume media from France - 70% of TV watched in francophone Switzerland comes from France, and (2) in African countries, the élite depends on money from Paris and receives instruction from Paris.



It should be well known that the French government is the puppet master of several African countries and exploits their natural ressources, these countries, although formally independent, are unfortunately still post-modern colonies of France. How could you explain that so many Africa-related conferences are hosted in Paris, and not Africa itself, and that so many French companies are involved in getting access to African ressources? Do you know where the education material from Africa comes from? Francophone Africa is a prolonged sphere of influence of France and francophone Europe massively culturally imports from France, which makes Québec the only territory outside of France to substantially produce francophone content of greater relevance.


So, it's Québec and France, and Brazil and Portugal, it's a tie.

The lusophone world is not more concentrated than the francophone world.


It is more important from where what comes from, rather than how big the total market is. "I do not give recipients higher value than transmitters." - because concentration is there where the power comes from, not where it arrives!!!!!!
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Old 10-12-2018, 07:42 PM
 
330 posts, read 94,435 times
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I would like to demonstrate it with an example of imagination. Let's imagine that France would disappear.


If France disappeared as a country, the whole francophone world would collapse. Many francophone African countries would switch from French to English (or Arabic, or national language). And they would also receive no money anymore from France. For them French would have no purpose anymore and they would use other languages as a mean of communication.
If France dispappeared, the media sector of Romandy and Belgium would be dramatically reshaped and transformed and they would be degraded to territories with low-status languages.
As a consequence, there would be much less francophone migrants for Québec to choose from and anglicization of Québec would proceed at faster levels, as French would become less powerful.

The francophone world without France, unimaginable because France is its centre of gravity.

Now let's imagine what would happen if both Mexico and Spain disappeared. Spanish would still be a strong language in Latin America. The Hispanic world would not collapse!

And if Brazil disappeared? It would be similar to the francophone world, Portugal would keeps it media & culture, but the rest of the lusophone world would be dramatically affected by the diappearance of Brazil.

Let's stop pretending that the francophone world is big outside France; it is artifically bolstered up by France and massively depends on France.
I think it is appropriate to say that the francophone world is France and the rest is dependencies, with the exception of Québec, although Québec without France will sink in the anglophone ocean.


Who agrees on this?
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