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Old 03-06-2013, 07:48 PM
 
Location: Columbus, Ohio
1,413 posts, read 3,731,658 times
Reputation: 1424

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
Just another tin pot dictator dead. RIP? No. He can rest in hell along with his other buddy Khadaffi. I guess he really is smelling the sulfur now. Another mass murdering friend of his, Syria's Assad, will probably be joining him soon in hell.
Hey how was that Cuban medical care Chavez?

Say what you want, he made Venezuela relevant again. While I do not agree with his stance on many things, he did a lot of good things.
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Old 03-06-2013, 07:56 PM
 
Location: Columbus, Ohio
1,413 posts, read 3,731,658 times
Reputation: 1424
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons View Post
You really think they were free and fair elections? You think if he ever lost one of his elections, he would actually step down? I think not.

The elections were certified by outside organizations as fair and free. I do think he would have stepped down. The military would have ensured this.
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Old 03-06-2013, 08:05 PM
 
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
5,901 posts, read 7,950,044 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Momotaro View Post
Say what you want, he made Venezuela relevant again. While I do not agree with his stance on many things, he did a lot of good things.
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Old 03-06-2013, 08:33 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
294 posts, read 585,014 times
Reputation: 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by George & Bill View Post
The two most abiding struggles for Venezuela, as in many other parts of Latin America, have been poverty and foreign/foreign-backed aggression. Chavez made significant progress in addressing these. Latin America is more politically harmonious than it was when he came to office, and offers an increasingly promising environment for the tackling of the issues you mention.
Indeed! poverty and imperialism have been the two main struggles in Venezuela, and in Latin America for that matter, since our emancipation from the Spanish crown. However, Chavez did not make any progress in addressing any of these issues. To the contrary, he has deepened an issue that seems to have no end. Additionally, he endorsed and added an issue that prior to his ascencion to power was not as endemic as it is currently and those are the crime and violence levels. As you may know, the murder index was higher in Venezuela than that of Iraq during 2009 and it seems to increase each year.

Expanding on the poverty issue, prior to the 1990's we had a semi robust middle class. Not the oligarchy that he always despised, but the one that made the "effort" to attend college and either get good jobs, create small businesses, or set up their own practises. This class of people was completely obliterated or voluntarely put into exile. Therefore, the social class that compose the Venezuelan population is by default the old poor (the same marginalized population that has always been) and the new poor (the ones that have suffered the economic and political policies of Chavez).

If you allow me to digress, I would like to say that I had the opportunity to be born and raised in a country, that despite our problems, we managed to at the very least get by. I lived in a nation that had no divide, but even if it did; it did not reach the levels of collective counciousness that we currently have. Chavez's rethoric created that divide of class and to certain extent race among us. So I hope, that as tragic as his death may be, this may open a new opportunity to run the country in a true Democratic fashion.

Last edited by Ed Guitar; 03-06-2013 at 09:10 PM..
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Old 03-06-2013, 08:44 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
294 posts, read 585,014 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Momotaro View Post
The elections were certified by outside organizations as fair and free. I do think he would have stepped down. The military would have ensured this.
Well my sister, a teacher at a public school for 25 years in the city of Valencia, was asked to choose between job stability or unemployment. Since she holds what most Americans would refer as a Gov't job, it was easy to track her voting records. Things are not so secret and sacred anymore specially in Venezuela. So with that said, if you apply coercion to the voting process in Venezuela then it wouldn't or shouldn't be a surprise that Chavez won the elections. Needless to say, Government is the single and largets employer in the country....so what gives?

Last edited by Ed Guitar; 03-06-2013 at 09:12 PM..
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Old 03-06-2013, 08:50 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
294 posts, read 585,014 times
Reputation: 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom9 View Post
Chavez was a very astute leader. If you don't like him that's your perogative but it doesn't change the facts. Someone mentioned the fact that he kept on using the US a his whipping boy. That's personal and that person misses the point. Chavez was using a tactic made most famous by Mao... getting the people of your country to look outside and see the enemy while the leader marshalls his forces and tries to correct the internal situation while the people are believing that an outside power is responsible for the internal problems. It's been used over and over again since the beginning of time. Bush used with the help of a neo-conservative sympathetic media, by putting the onus on France. You ate it up.... "freedom fries". Brilliant move.

Do you think Chavez gave a tinker's dam what some hick under a rock in Iowa thought or a cowboy on Brokeback Mountain un Idaho? Hell no. He cared only about winning over the Yamomami in Venezuela. Call the US president a devil and win a Venezuela cupid doll to resounding applause in Caracas. If you take it personally you lose. It's like the short-stop needling the batter. It's not personal he just doesn't want the batter to get a hit. He doesn't give a hoot what the batter's name is. It's not about the person cause the next batter is going to get the same treatment and he could be the short stop's kid brother. The name of the game is winning. All's fair in love, war and politics.

The truth is nobody really cares about our pizzant opinions here on this forum and if we want them to then we have to become very active in getting the message out. There's no whining in politics and no crying in baseball.
I concur! In fact, his propaganda of the enemy was a triology composed of the U.S., the oligarchy, and the Spanish royalty.......speaking of the devil, who can forget that meeting ( you can find it in you tube) where Chavez rants for a long time and all of a sudden the King of Spain stands up and says " shout up you sob"....
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Old 03-06-2013, 09:08 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
294 posts, read 585,014 times
Reputation: 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by irish_bob View Post
chavez refused to accept american hegemony of latin america as a given which of course made him despised by american power and american corporations who gained access to venezuelas assetts in the past by way of crooked backroom deals with american stooges in caracas who eventually fled to florida with their thirty pieces of silver
Very true...He refused American Imperialism, but then turned around and accepted the Russian and Chinese Imperialism in exchange for debt and military assitance. Therefore, the play was the same; all he did was to change the characters. By the way, corruption is rampant right about now so nothing new under the sun.


Quote:
Originally Posted by irish_bob View Post
in a country like venezuela where inequality was so profound and left the country inherently dysfunctional , it was nesccessery to harness the full power of the state in order to bring about fundamental change , chavez didnt have the luxury of behaving like the PM of sweeden or norway , he needed to be much more earthy , norway is the largest shareholder in the oil company statoil and uses the proceeds to improve the wellbeing of the country as a whole , what chavez did was not so different only he had to be more crude about it due to the chronic level of poverty among the bulk of the population , he had much success in decreasing child mortality etc
Has that changed? Cause' last time I checked, we were still really f'inkg poor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by irish_bob View Post
its a peculiar thing how a sizeable percentage of the american population seem to believe its their business who soverign countries elect as their leader
Americans only? I find it amuzing that a lot of Europenas fall in that blame game of Americans these and that, but actually Spain has had a big finger stuck in the middle of all this. Yet I see no one even making a reference about it. All I hear is that Americans this and that.....not that is not true, but they are not the only ones involved in the cluster f*u*c*k*
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Old 03-06-2013, 10:45 PM
 
Location: Mid Atlantic USA
12,087 posts, read 9,606,237 times
Reputation: 5261
Quote:
Originally Posted by irish_bob View Post
chavez refused to accept american hegemony of latin america as a given which of course made him despised by american power and american corporations who gained access to venezuelas assetts in the past by way of crooked backroom deals with american stooges in caracas who eventually fled to florida with their thirty pieces of silver

in a country like venezuela where inequality was so profound and left the country inherently dysfunctional , it was nesccessery to harness the full power of the state in order to bring about fundamental change , chavez didnt have the luxury of behaving like the PM of sweeden or norway , he needed to be much more earthy , norway is the largest shareholder in the oil company statoil and uses the proceeds to improve the wellbeing of the country as a whole , what chavez did was not so different only he had to be more crude about it due to the chronic level of poverty among the bulk of the population , he had much success in decreasing child mortality etc

its a peculiar thing how a sizeable percentage of the american population seem to believe its their business who soverign countries elect as their leader

What a phoney you are. Like you Irish didn't bad mouth the US continuously under Bush, and make it your business our elected leader. Shove it.

I'm left of center, and while I agree with his stance on the poor, he was a sworn enemy of the US. I'd like to see what stand you would take to a sworn enemy of your dear old Ireland. You like how he hobnobbed with the Iranian dictator, and Assad? He would have been overjoyed if Iran detonated a nuclear weapon in the US. I guess you would still be on here singing his praises after such a thing.

I love how you Euro's roll over for anyone as long as they bad mouth the US. My brother worked in Ireland for three years and had to listen to all the crap the Irish slung at him about Americans.
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:54 AM
 
Location: Scotland
7,972 posts, read 9,729,336 times
Reputation: 4069
Lol, "sworn enemy" ? What because he wouldn't do what your government wanted?
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Old 03-07-2013, 04:50 AM
 
233 posts, read 301,267 times
Reputation: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momotaro View Post
Say what you want, he made Venezuela relevant again. While I do not agree with his stance on many things, he did a lot of good things.

He did one good thing....kick the bucket!!!
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