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if you are from canada, northern europe & australia, then the PIGS are not first world countries to you. They can be easily overtaken by many eastern european countries in economy in a decade time.
Italy is certainly first world, and I suppose Spain is as well. I see that statistically Portugal and Greece are technically first world, but honestly, these places struck me as poor when I went there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling
Unfortunately Portugal is a bit similar to the US in that it has a poor Gini index, i.e. there is a sharp contrast between the rich and the poor, unlike in Scandinavia. So yes, there are filthy rich people here as well, not just poor ones...
Measuring income inequality is one very small piece to a much larger puzzle. If income equality was so important, then you wouldn't see more Swedes out of a smaller population moving to the US than vice-versa. The actual wealth of the country, income of the middle class, cost of living, opportunity, and climate are factors that are of equal or greater importance than income equality.
The poor in America are better off than the poor in Germany, but the rich are richer than those in Germany. But because the gap between the rich and poor in Germany is smaller, America has "more inequality". This gives the illusion that somehow a middle class American is worse off than a middle class German.
These countries are definitely first world although they do certainly have parts which are impoverished just like in every country in the world. It is true that southern europe has been hit particularly hard by financial crisis (oh please it's been 6 years now lets name the puppy) DEPRESSION but that doesn't mean that all the services of a typical 1st world nation are not available. Where I lived in Abruzzo it is teaming with brand new construction (they cover the condos here with slabs of marble!!), shopping malls, night clubs, beach establishments. Again, nothing is missing here that i didn't have in NJ growing up except....the money has been recently taken out of the equation. Besides the fact the Euro was an all around bad idea for southern Europe because Italy's buying power was halved there is also a lot of corruption (which you can read all about in my previous posts).
The thing is though with Italy it is such a shame to see just how corruption corrodes everything that was once good. The italians are known the world over for their craftsmanship and quality made products. The country on paper shouldn't be in such shambles but it is due unfortunately to indifference and Italy's incapacity to face the future. For instance there is a phenomenon I call the Italian paradox.
Italy produces some of the worlds best scientists and researches however Italy is the industrialized country which spends the least on research and development so by default many of it's brighter are forced to go overseas. This is also called "scappo die cervelli" which means literally "escape of the brains!"
It's "fuga dei cervelli".
I do agree with you, fortunately people are slowly waking up and the entire bubble in which the politicians lived will, hopefully, explode.
Plus, Italy must ri-negotiate many of its ties with EU, so that our country won't be smashed by a stronger currency and policies definitely against this country.
Back to the topic: it's evident that the poster has never been to any of those countries.
It's "fuga dei cervelli".
I do agree with you, fortunately people are slowly waking up and the entire bubble in which the politicians lived will, hopefully, explode.
Plus, Italy must ri-negotiate many of its ties with EU, so that our country won't be smashed by a stronger currency and policies definitely against this country.
Back to the topic: it's evident that the poster has never been to any of those countries.
I've been to Italy and Spain but not Greece and Portugal. I have family in Portugal and plan to visit in the next couple of years for sure. I agree that Italy and Spain are first world but the question I was getting at is whether they can they slip a notch lower given their serious socioeconomic problems? Is this possible, is really the issue I wanted people to discuss. Greece and Portugal are borderline first world countries at best and the stats say so - they are more debatable. Especially the way they are trending.
Last edited by johnathanc; 02-26-2014 at 08:23 AM..
I've been to Italy and Spain but not Greece and Portugal. I have family in Portugal and plan to visit in the next couple of years for sure. I agree that Italy and Spain are first world but the question I was getting at is whether they can they slip a notch lower given their serious socioeconomic problems? Is this possible, is really the issue I wanted people to discuss. Greece and Portugal are borderline first world countries at best and the stats say so - they are more debatable. Especially the way they are trending.
It also depends on what you mean with first world:
Health? Portugal and Greece(especially the latter) have seen their healthcare system hampered by austerity but they remain 1st world ones (moreover, for everybody). Italy has one the best healthcare system in the world.
Infrastructure? Spain has one of the best of Europe and Italy has some excellent high trains (despite a generically bad railway). Greece and Portugal aren't that bad either: sure, they have not the immense German autobahnen, yet I doubt any of those countries has roads worthy of being labelled as "third worldish".
Quality of life? A VERY debatable issue: in terms of cuisine you are likely to eat better in those countries than in most of the world, especially of the first world.
All those cuisine are far healthier than American one and far better, overall (in terms of GENERAL CONSENSUS) than any of other "1st world countries".
Criminality is not that high, especially in Italy which has, as far as I remember, a 5 times inferior rape rate than US.
GDP Per Capita? They all are above 25,000 €, in certain areas of Italy it is higher than most of Sweden.
Politicians? They all suck, no doubt.
Literacy? 99% in all of them.
Economy? Sure it's declining, but Spain and Italy remains among the largest and most important economies in the world.
Italy has some of the best craftsmanship companies in the world and an enormous amount of brands famous in the world.
Surely all these countries are suffering from corruption, austerity, spread and a widespread badly handled economy but they are all within 1st world criteria.
Portuguese highway density is much higher than the UE average and was built in the last 25 years. Road accidents are steadily decreasing since 1992.
The motorway density (km/100 000 population) in 2005:
Portugal - 22
Germany - 15
UE average - 13
If there's an area that Portugal is (was?!) spending loads of money was in motorways. Some of them were very important, some of them were completely unnecessary and there are still some areas in the country without a single one completed.
The problem with this kind of discussion is that we do not necessary know what kind of life below the 1st world countries average is. So we are discussing small things, unimportant ones, because this 1st world countries have small richness, but they have some richness nonetheless. So countries do better in these areas, other countries do better in others.
That is very rude for those countries were the real poverty exists, and simply put, we in the "1st world" don't give a "dime" of importance to them: huge infant mortality rates, famine, deaths from curable diseases, death from lack of potable water, and so on. That's what poverty means.
Please, the countries of the thread might be "pigs", but this conversation smells like some kind of xenophobic lets-make-fun-of-those-that-are-different-from-us type of ignorance.
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