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Old 06-28-2013, 06:26 PM
 
9,064 posts, read 9,217,240 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
I guess that cultural unity is a good thing, it keeps the country together in times of trouble like now.
I went to Portugal 30 years ago, and I remember talking to them about their national identity cards. I understand that they go back to the 1920's.

I told him that the issuance of American identity cards was strongly opposed. When social security began in 1935, President FDR was very adamant in his speech that the social security card would not become a national identity card.

The Portuguese found it very difficult to believe why anyone would resist an ID card.
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Old 06-28-2013, 08:00 PM
 
363 posts, read 543,358 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Have you ever lived in Portugal? I have been living here for years now. And being German I can compare it to Germany, which is always mentioned as one of the most advanced countries. The differences are not nearly as big as you seem to think. Portugal has similar problems as the US, i.e. a bloated service sector, too little manufacturing, a huge debt...

Yes, some people have emigrated, but that has always been the case, that is why Brazil came into being. Portugal is a typical emigration country, just like Ireland. This country has been around for 900 years or so, it will still be here when the US has fallen apart. It is not a sinking ship and most people are staying here. Some of the emigrants have already returned from the rich north after just a few months as they did not like it there. Portugal however is one of the most beautiful places in all of Europe. So are Greece and Spain.

Have you ever been to a 3rd world country? Go to Somalia or Mali, then go to Portugal or Greece. Then you will know the difference and try to delete your foolish post above...
I've been to Portugal and studied it quiet thoroughly from a business perspective, it is most certainly not a 1st world country by any stretch of the imagination.

The difference is that USA actually HAD a manufacturing sector, portugal just never had one, once they lost their colonies, they just kind of floundered and never really developed industry. You won't see any rocket trains being built in Portugal soon.

In terms of beauty, yes it is, I agree, in fact spain, greece, italy are among the most beautful countries in the world. But lets not confuse beauty with economic development. Places like Greece, Portugal and to a lesser extent spain are not 1st world, these people are living off old money in dying economies. There are probably more opportunities to get rich in somalia given that the northern half is about as developed as portugal or greece and the southern half is full of pirate millionaires who are building mansions all around Mogadishu.
To me the 3rd world countries embrace a far broader compass of developing countries. Brazil is 3rd world, not as 3rd world as Mali is but Brazil's big cities are more advanced than Lisbon or athens, lets be real here. 3rd world countries really look more like a Brazil, South Africa, Russia, northern somalia, saudi arabia and Portugal and Greece and Spain. With places like ethiopia being on the far low extreme end. But many 3rd world countries like Algeria and North Korea have subway systems and fairly decent modern amenties in their capitals. It is when you go to the rural areas what determines 1st world.

A guy in rural netherlands is still living a good first world life with internet, tv, etc. A guy in rural sicily or portugal doesn't afford that. In fact the rural south african farmer might be better off than the rural sicilian or portuguese because he isn't paying in euro prices
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Old 06-28-2013, 08:06 PM
 
363 posts, read 543,358 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iNviNciBL3 View Post
If Italy is first world, Spain is first world.

Saying Greece and Portugal is third world is way off and makes you sound dumb.
I don't see no need to get offended about. Greece and Portugal are 3rd world, they are both broke, so you can't get poorer than broke can you

Give me the choice of
Portugal or greece vs
Thailand, Brazil, South Africa, Russia, Turkey, Botswana.
I think most people would choose the latter over the former.

Spain is very borderline I'll admit but I read about people working for free, the huge unemployment in Spain, the lack of jobs, hard to think a country with so many unemployed people could possibly maintain 1st world living standard. As well they never really developed that advanced industry that the actual 1st world countries with advanced manufacturing have developed like the Germans, Americans, Japanese, Canadians, Australians, French and English. The Spainards or Portuguese or greeks could not land a man on the moon if the Americans mailed them the instructions. The Japs, Canadians, Australians and french probably could.
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Old 06-28-2013, 08:20 PM
 
Location: Czech Republic
2,385 posts, read 5,567,316 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scaramouchebluez View Post
Italy is first world, especially in the north. Spain is 2nd world. And portugal and Greece are 3rd world especially now after austerity. Sure they have some rich people there but most people are dying to get out of those sinking ship countries.
Portugal and Greece are not 3rd world. I come from the Philippines so I know what a third world country is. I lived in Portugal for 10 years. Philippines and Portugal are very different especially in terms of public health. Portugal has access to public health and education, their roads are also developed so please stop saying it is a 3rd world country.

I don't think the rich want to get out. Why would they want to when they do not need to as they are rich ? Portuguese are one of the most patriotic people in the world. I know some who are not even financially well but do not even consider moving to a richer country in Europe. Most people that I know cannot picture out living any where else except in Portugal. Even the ones who work in Paris or Switzerland or UK, they always try to go back every summer. They cannot stand to be away for so long from their beloved Portugal.
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Old 06-28-2013, 08:24 PM
 
Location: M I N N E S O T A
14,805 posts, read 16,980,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scaramouchebluez View Post
I don't see no need to get offended about. Greece and Portugal are 3rd world, they are both broke, so you can't get poorer than broke can you

Give me the choice of
Portugal or greece vs
Thailand, Brazil, South Africa, Russia, Turkey, Botswana.
I think most people would choose the latter over the former.

Spain is very borderline I'll admit but I read about people working for free, the huge unemployment in Spain, the lack of jobs, hard to think a country with so many unemployed people could possibly maintain 1st world living standard. As well they never really developed that advanced industry that the actual 1st world countries with advanced manufacturing have developed like the Germans, Americans, Japanese, Canadians, Australians, French and English. The Spainards or Portuguese or greeks could not land a man on the moon if the Americans mailed them the instructions. The Japs, Canadians, Australians and french probably could.
Why do you ignore HDI rankings?
Portugal and Greece are ranked far better than Thailand, Brazil, SA, Russian, Turkey and Botswana.....
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Old 06-28-2013, 08:36 PM
 
363 posts, read 543,358 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermosaa View Post
Portugal and Greece are not 3rd world. I come from the Philippines so I know what a third world country is. I lived in Portugal for 10 years. Philippines and Portugal are very different especially in terms of public health. Portugal has access to public health and education, their roads are also developed so please stop saying it is a 3rd world country.

I don't think the rich want to get out. Why would they want to when they do not need to as they are rich ? Portuguese are one of the most patriotic people in the world. I know some who are not even financially well but do not even consider moving to a richer country in Europe. Most people that I know cannot picture out living any where else except in Portugal. Even the ones who work in Paris or Switzerland or UK, they always try to go back every summer. They cannot stand to be away for so long from their beloved Portugal.
No offense but read what I said, there are some extremely ghetto poor 3rd world countries like Congo and Philippines. You aren't going to starve to death in Lisbon, no one is saying that. But Lisbon is not as advanced as alot of the 3rd world countries major cities like in China, Brazil, Russia, South Africa, etc.

The rich don't want out but the rich don't want out anywhere

Fair enough but it is not 1st world. No more 1st world than any non super backwards country
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Old 06-28-2013, 08:49 PM
 
363 posts, read 543,358 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iNviNciBL3 View Post
Why do you ignore HDI rankings?
Portugal and Greece are ranked far better than Thailand, Brazil, SA, Russian, Turkey and Botswana.....
HDI is looking at average of Total country. It ignores that there are people in the 3rd world countries in major cities who put the poor southern european 3rd world economies to shame. I'd rather be a russia oligarcj or one of those guys who gets handed down a million dollar property in moscow from nana or son of a chinese factory owner millionaire than the the average portuguese. And No portugal and greece are not even ranked that high.

What you are missing out is countries like Brazil and South Africa have sizeable populations who just want to play the drums in the forest all day and want to play native indian. these people don't want to grow up, and they are in China, Russia, Turkey, most of these emerging economies. But you compare Moscow, Istanbul, Botswana capital, Bangkok, Rio or Sao Paulo to Lisbon or Athens it is not close, not by a mile. You compare a shanghai with its rocket train and moon landings to Lisbon and one has to be nuts to think Portugal is more developed. You aren't going to find a huge portuguese slum like in the favellas or the chinese ghettos. But you aren't going to find the matching high end either. These place like portugal and greece never developed advanced manufacturing that exist in place like rio, or moscow or shanghai to be considered anywhere near as advanced.
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Old 06-29-2013, 02:20 AM
 
Location: western East Roman Empire
6,112 posts, read 10,148,533 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slam4444 View Post
First/second/third world terminology is outdated. It was used during the Cold War, where 1st world = US and allies, 2nd world = USSR and allies, and 3rd world = everyone else. So no, they're not third world. Maybe you mean developing?
I agree, outdated terminology.

I view it in term of industrialization.

Italy, especially northern Italy, can be considered a country of early industrialization, though around a half century behind countries like UK, France and US, and about par timewise with Russia, Germany and Japan (by the way, that should tell you something about so-called WWII).

Spain made big jumps especially in the 1960s, in alliance with the US, and is among the world's top industrialized countries, including car manufacturing and solar energy, in alliance with Germany over the past few decades.

I think it is fair to say that Portugal and Greece have ridden on the coattails of their European bretheren, even as early as the 1920s, though Greece has ship manufacturing. Can't really say what Portugal has that stands out in terms of industrialization, other than being a point of assembly for things like cars.

But now that industrialization is going global, what happened in the first century or two will one day be forgotten, just as this Cold War terminology almost already is. A bit quaint, and sad, to see it still used from time to time.

Back to today, Italy may be leading the charge in de-industrialization: its first and premier industrial business complex - Fiat (both Fiat Auto and Fiat Industrial) - will be leaving Italy by the end of this year as global headquarters and set up shop in the US, UK, Netherlands to oversee its global operations, serving as its capital and fiscal base, leaving in Italy a few assembly plants, relegating it to the role that a country like Portugal or, say, Ecuador plays in the global economy.

Overall, the problem with southern European countries is that for almost some 1,500 years now their superhighway to trade and direct investment has been more or less broken and managed by others, and no repair is in sight.

So faghettaboutit.
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Old 06-29-2013, 02:22 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
19,865 posts, read 18,308,470 times
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Just a few remarks on the ignorant statements above:

Don't make the mistake to think a city needs skyscrapers in order to be a first-world city. Lisbon is a so-called Beta+ city, i.e. in exactly the same group as Houston, Montreal, Berlin, Hamburg, Vancouver, Bangalore, Rome, Stockholm or Tel Aviv.

Portugal always had and still has a manufacturing base, especially in the north. Just recently the Brazilian aerospace giant Embraer has opened a new manufacturing plant in Portugal.

I live in a small town in the least densely populated region of Portugal, far from Lisbon. But it is definitely first-world. Everything is working the way it should in a first-world city. Infrastructure is complete and modern (roads, railway station, water, electricity, garbage disposal, medical center, even 4G and fiberoptics communications), there is no crime, unemployment is low. This is just like a small town in the Midwest in the US. Again, first world does not mean glitzy skyscrapers.
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Old 06-29-2013, 02:52 AM
 
25 posts, read 80,703 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
There are parts in those countries that might be more typical of developing countries. But those are usually remote hinterland regions where young people have moved away from. The bulk of people in all those countries live in cities, which of course are first-world.
It's not that in Germany or the US or Japan there are no abandoned places. Go to some parts of Eastern Germany, it can be quite gloomy. So are parts of the US.
Tiny Portugal is even ahead of Germany in some infrastructure, the fiber optics network for instance is way more elaborate and advanced in Portugal. So is 4G.

I don't recall any poor hinterland area in Spain comparable with pauper and morally-economically depressed areas in the United Sates and Germany. Germany has large tracts that are third world in the former DDR, dilapidated infrastructure and defeated people living on the dole, or thanks to the money earned by their women working for western money. They are so down and out that they want the wall back. Let's not discuss the US, since we would have to board thorny racial issues.
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