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What I find peculiar about Russia, is that Russians ( unlike the rest of Europeans) in general are greatly disconnected from the rest of the world - be that tzarist times, Soviet times or post-Soviet Russia.
I mean during period of the Iron curtain that was more or less understandable, but apparently the root of this phenomenon is running deeper than that. I suspect that such thing as "class" has got more to do with that, because that "class" in Russia that is worldly, that travels, that's knowledgeable, is very disconnected from the "general population" that is very unworldly, and it has been historically so. I mean you can see how sometimes those "simple folks" are trying to discuss the world affairs, based on their sporadic knowledge of some translated material that in no way can give them full, more objective picture. Moscow and St. Petersburg are one thing ( and even on their news sites it's often difficult to figure out what's true, what's not - what news you can trust 100% and what is only "approximate" take on things. But take for example one particular news site somewhere in Siberia, that I like to read. I've noticed that discussing local topics people are very bright and knowledgeable, and express tonnes of opinions and ideas, cracking wise jokes from time to time, but when it comes to a subject of something like world economy ( and Russia's place in it,) they are mostly silent, apparently not knowing exactly what to say ( or believe.)
Of course the uniqueness of Russian language itself has got a lot to do with it ( not an easy language for transition to Latin/Germanic group of languages,) but as I've said that this "natural separation" is only a part of it. When I've met this description in Karl Haushofer's biography ( German geopolitician) it kind of made me think about Russians for a second in terms of "limitation of global knowledge," although in a somewhat different way.
"Haushofer entered academia with the aim of restoring and regenerating Germany. Haushofer believed the Germans' lack of geographical knowledge and geopolitical awareness to be a major cause of Germany’s defeat in World War I, as Germany had found itself with a disadvantageous alignment of allies and enemies."
I still see a big difference between the Russians and the rest of Europeans ( not to mention Americans and Canadians) that have an easy access to well-rounded information on about anything and can influence the world affairs as the direct result of it. In case of Russians, historically speaking, you have the whole bunch of people who are basically connected to the rest of the world through their "official representatives" - i.e. the governmental figures that basically control the flow of information, plus the peculiarities of the Russian culture itslef ( and the language) that obviously contribute to this process.
So in this case you basically have a lot of people who have no say in world affairs ( not to mention their own,) other then via their government, that acts as if they are the only ones who know it all.
But see, the second is the direct consequence of the first. If you don't have a good understanding of the world affairs, if you are deprived of ability to compare and make a sound judgment where your real place in the world is in terms of culture, history, economy and what's not, that's when the typical Russian bi-polar attitude settles in; either "I am the best and the greatest in the world" or "Woo to me, I am unworthy and can't do anything right."
And I am afraid that starting "taking care of one's appearance" won't solve the problem under the circumstances.
Is Russia really exceptionally disconnected throughout history outside of the Cold War? It's had a pretty long history of occupations, invasions, immigration and emigration.
Forgetting the history of both countries, Brazil is something like the tropical version of Russia. Huge extension, large economy based mostly on natural resources,
I wondered about that one, since Wikipedia didn't make it clear for me.
Every time I hear about the "booming economy ( outside of the realm of the *West,*) I'm usually thinking "cherchez la femme" sort of, meaning what was it exactly that the *West* found exactly attractive there - natural resources, cheap labor or the new market for selling its goods?
I can't think of any other reasons))))
Is Russia really exceptionally disconnected throughout history outside of the Cold War? It's had a pretty long history of occupations, invasions, immigration and emigration.
Yes it is very disconnected ( always has been so,) and a long history of "occupations, invasions, immigration and emigration" don't help much, because immigration usually happen within the upper level of the society, and this part of the society historically has been quite disconnected from the lower one. When emigration happen, then people usually are never heard from ever again, and as far as "invasions" or any kind of incursions go, ( which supposedly have to affect the lower part of the society) - again it's not the case. Russians are usually oblivious to "other people's cultural differences"; they absorb the newcomers and tend to russify them right away. Then these newcomers are never heard again from in their respective native lands, so Russia is sort of like the Black Hole of the Universe.
I wondered about that one, since Wikipedia didn't make it clear for me.
Every time I hear about the "booming economy ( outside of the realm of the *West,*) I'm usually thinking "cherchez la femme" sort of, meaning what was it exactly that the *West* found exactly attractive there - natural resources, cheap labor or the new market for selling its goods?
I can't think of any other reasons))))
Brazil is part of the West.
Really both Brazil and Russia have large economies, but mostly based on commodities. None of these countries have a competitive industry and are minor powers when talking about technology - the opposite of what happens in China.
Brazil is part of the West.
Really both Brazil and Russia have large economies, but mostly based on commodities. None of these countries have a competitive industry and are minor powers when talking about technology - the opposite of what happens in China.
I don't see Brazil as part of the West - rather as a Western "outlet"; that's the closest word I can find to describe the situation. ( But that's of course my personal opinion only.)
As far as "minor powers when talking about technology," that's precisely what I am pointing at, that Brazil has never been such power, while Russia used to be it, and her science and technology sector has been dutifully dismantled; the West took care of that, while shipping its technology to China, which basically is only capable of regurgitating Western ideas.
I don't see Brazil as part of the West - rather as a Western "outlet"; that's the closest word I can find to describe the situation. ( But that's of course my personal opinion only.)
As far as "minor powers when talking about technology," that's precisely what I am pointing at, that Brazil has never been such power, while Russia used to be it, and her science and technology sector has been dutifully dismantled; the West took care of that, while shipping its technology to China, which basically is only capable of regurgitating Western ideas.
Russia had (and the USSR had) a pretty good science and technology sector was definitely a great leading research and development center in some senses--it was only lacking in development of consumer-oriented products or services which drives a huge part of the sector globally and often ends up having ramifications in much narrower academic or "purely" scientific settings or what would allow for military advantages.* Brazil has historically been pretty weak in both, but has made really large strides in the last couple decades, so right now it stands alright. Not a superpower here, but a potential one in the near future.
China is kind of an interesting side topic. The greatest boost China got in the modern era was the huge transfer of technology between the USSR and PRC before the Sino-Soviet split and much more so than from piracy of western manufacturers. An important thing to consider though is that since the 90s and even a bit earlier, China has and continues to pump an incredible amount of funding and other resources to scientific and technological research and development. The idea that it is only capable of regurgitating Western ideas was mostly true from maybe the late 19th century to the late 20th century (understandable given how closed off and subsequently backwards it had become), but it certainly doesn't hold true today.
The sheer volume of scientific research and the papers its publishes per year is gaining on the US with the big difference being that nearly all of this done in China is done by home grown talent whereas the US has an enormous number of foreign or foreign-born researchers and graduate students (the USSR was somewhat in a middle ground with less reliance on non-Russian or non-USSR researchers, but still a substantial number). This is likely to skew even more heavily as the number of Chinese college students that choose to go to STEM fields is, in both absolute and relative numbers, much larger than that for the US. It's currently in a brute force numbers game to get as many results as possible which does not necessarily result in particularly great quality in some of the research, but the sheer output means that there is a constant and growing stream of actually innovative research.
No comment on a willful dismantling of Russia's science and tech sector by western powers.
*one of many really recent examples is the use of consumer graphics cards in supercomputing--the history of which had been for video game nerds to talk nerd to each other until scientists and engineers started realizing that the sort of architecture used to pump out top-of-the-line computer graphics for video games was an amazingly economical way to crunch numbers.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 08-09-2013 at 01:52 PM..
As most, I cast my vote for India as being the least developed BRIC nation. I marvel at this phenomenon. How does a nation of people filled with brilliant minds linger so far behind the development curve? Does religion play an important role in this development stagnation? Is it a lack of natural resources?
I trust that the well informed on this subject will explain, or - at the very least - offer an unbiased opinion.
Russia had (and the USSR had) a pretty good science and technology sector was definitely a great leading research and development center in some senses--it was only lacking in development of consumer-oriented productsor services which drives a huge part of the sector globally and often ends up having ramifications in much narrower academic or "purely" scientific settings or what would allow for military advantages.*
But this "purely scientific" setting is not something uniquely belonging to "Soviet ideas."
Although we thought so back in Soviet times that it was the part of some kind of Universal conspiracy that Soviet government was not capable (or was not willing to) develop the applied science ( read consumer-oriented products or services,) but the truth is it was not Soviet system, actually, but Tzarist Russia that determined a "purely scientific" trend; or may be it was Russian mind itself, so tuned to abstract thinking, so striving for distant future, that such mundane things as "consumer-oriented services" was not worthy of its effort or attention. After all, the ability to disregard the daily hardship in the name of ideas ( or spirituality in general) has been always an essential part of Russian national character.
(I wondered sometimes back in the day, where such books as "The Garin death ray" or "Aelita" came from,
because they seemed to be so misplaced in time, but taking in consideration someone like Tsiolkovsky and his astronautic theory ( he was born in 1854 for Christ sake!) the development of fundamental science in Tzarist Russia overall, they didn't come out of nowhere either.)
Brazil has historically been pretty weak in both, but has made really large strides in the last couple decades, so right now it stands alright. Not a superpower here, but a potential one in the near future.
China is kind of an interesting side topic. The greatest boost China got in the modern era was the huge transfer of technology between the USSR and PRC before the Sino-Soviet split and much more so than from piracy of western manufacturers. An important thing to consider though is that since the 90s and even a bit earlier, China has and continues to pump an incredible amount of funding and other resources to scientific and technological research and development. The idea that it is only capable of regurgitating Western ideas was mostly true from maybe the late 19th century to the late 20th century (understandable given how closed off and subsequently backwards it had become), but it certainly doesn't hold true today.
The sheer volume of scientific research and the papers its publishes per year is gaining on the US with the big difference being that nearly all of this done in China is done by home grown talent whereas the US has an enormous number of foreign or foreign-born researchers and graduate students
As I've said, the nations that were capable creating the foundation for the modern science already did so long time ago, so the "sheer volume of scientific research and published papers" somewhere else today don't make much difference. It's just the regurgitation of what the West is allowing anyone else to know.
Quote:
No comment on a willful dismantling of Russia's science and tech sector by western powers.
But this "purely scientific" setting is not something uniquely belonging to "Soviet ideas."
Although we thought so back in Soviet times that it was the part of some kind of Universal conspiracy that Soviet government was not capable (or was not willing to) develop the applied science ( read consumer-oriented products or services,) but the truth is it was not Soviet system, actually, but Tzarist Russia that determined a "purely scientific" trend; or may be it was Russian mind itself, so tuned to abstract thinking, so striving for distant future, that such mundane things as "consumer-oriented services" was not worthy of its effort or attention. After all, the ability to disregard the daily hardship in the name of ideas ( or spirituality in general) has been always an essential part of Russian national character.
(I wondered sometimes back in the day, where such books as "The Garin death ray" or "Aelita" came from,
because they seemed to be so misplaced in time, but taking in consideration someone like Tsiolkovsky and his astronautic theory ( he was born in 1854 for Christ sake!) the development of fundamental science in Tzarist Russia overall, they didn't come out of nowhere either.)
As I've said, the nations that were capable creating the foundation for the modern science already did so long time ago, so the "sheer volume of scientific research and published papers" somewhere else today don't make much difference. It's just the regurgitation of what the West is allowing anyone else to know.
How come?
Yes, so I wanted to state both Russia and the USSR lest anyone thinks I'm singling out the Soviet period for lack of consumer facing technologies. It seems to have a lot to do with the relatively small affluent and educated middle class and merchant class Russia's had relative to some other nations.
I don't understand how it's counted as regurgitation. Mathematical and technological progress was never a strictly western affair, and western europe did not reach arguable levels of trchnological superiority until the late 18th or early 19th century. Meanwhile, before, currently, and in the future, technological knowhow was/is/will be the same as usual where ideas get diffused to parts receptive to them and built upon. If this is all regurgitation, then it has always been regurgitation and certainly the West would have fairly little claim to being the original.
nice forum-huge-more useful than all sorts of social networks - so many topics for discussion, even a topic about Russia is). Actually, I live there. However, Russia is Ukraine in the current borders. Kyiv and its surroundings is Russia. The current borders of the "russian federation" is a multinational state " it all began with Muscovy(state of Ivan 4 - 16-17-century. Then appeared the Russian Empire, when the third Tsar of the Romanov dynasty renamed Muscovy and the annexed lands into the Rossiyan Empire( not Russian and Rossiyan).FROM this point, the territory around Kyiv was called Malorossiya( in english it 'd be named "small Rossiya"). Then was renamed in Ukraine("periphery"- eng) . Muscovy and the Central regions of the Federation is a mixture of Finno-Ugric, Chuvash, Mordovian, Tatar peoples. Even in the translation a bit of a misnomer to call Russia( closer, Rossiya).So Russia is Ukraine . Even Belarus has more reasons to consider themselves Russians than the Federation
Last edited by Mihaike; 08-11-2013 at 02:04 PM..
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After all, the ability to disregard the daily hardship in the name of ideas ( or spirituality in general) has been always an essential part of Russian national character. 
