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Old 09-16-2013, 08:53 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yofie View Post
But many, many Quebecois migrated to Ontario at that same time, too! Especially to the east and north of Ontario (not far from the Quebec border). Hence, the Franco-Ontarians - the single-largest French population of any Canadian province outside Quebec. .
Indeed they did - but Ontario was much easier for poor people to get to than Western Canada. Look at where they primarily settled - generally in areas fairly close to the border with Quebec.
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Old 09-16-2013, 08:59 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barneyg View Post
I don't deny the effect of British policies, but I wanted to point out that the France/Quebec vs Netherlands/S.Africa vs Spain-Portugal/S.America comparison is unfair to begin with, since so few French people emigrated from France. France's birth rate following the Franco-Prussian War was much lower than elsewhere in Western Europe, so the economic incentives to emigrate were much lower.
This is very true as well.

I also note that France is very large, at least relative to other countries in Europe. Look at how many people are packed into far less territory in the UK or Germany for example.

And so people looking for land probably weren't so squeezed in France as they were in many other places.
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Old 09-16-2013, 09:48 AM
 
Location: In the heights
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Are there any academic studies or writings on the history of transmission of cultural goods, norms, and media between Quebec and francophone Europe? How good of a ban can there really be?
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Old 09-16-2013, 10:02 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Are there any academic studies or writings on the history of transmission of cultural goods, norms, and media between Quebec and francophone Europe? How good of a ban can there really be?
Not sure what your question is but at the moment, there are no restrictions whatsoever. And there haven't been any in decades.

But sure, at the time of the British Conquest one of the things the British did was ban all imports from France. And this ban or similar types of restrictions persisted for quite some time. When you have nothing coming into the country from France, well this means no books and no other cultural stuff as well.

I am not sure that the objective (par for the course in those days I am pretty sure) was solely assimilationist, as a main purpose was likely to favour trade with Britain in the new colony, and to give the upper hand to British colonists and businesspeople as opposed to the ones of French origin whose existing ties to France and its colonies were abruptly cut off.

It's all Colonialism 101.

I've also read in historical records how a source of French books for Quebec was at one time the United States, as no restrictions existed there, and the land border was of course quite porous.
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Old 09-17-2013, 06:37 AM
 
Location: Montreal
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I'm thinking now - in addition to all the reasons above, one could say that for Canada and South Africa, you could say that after Britain took them over from the French and the Dutch, they became linked to the transportation/trade network whereby routes to Canada and South Africa from Continental Europe were essentially funneled through London and England. Plus, the British preferred British Isles immigrants (as opposed to Continental European immigrants) to come to Canada and South Africa (and Australia and New Zealand).

The difference with the Latin American countries, I think, is that once they became independent, they were not linked with any empire-oriented transport/trade routes, so that you could have regular shipping routes go direct from French or German ports or whatever to Mexican, Brazilian, Argentine, Chilean, and other Latin ports. And as far as I know, the Latins didn't have a preference for immigrants to come from one or two source countries.

I think that makes as much sense (if not more) as the other reasons stated above; your thoughts?
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Old 09-17-2013, 10:46 AM
 
Location: In the heights
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Not sure what your question is but at the moment, there are no restrictions whatsoever. And there haven't been any in decades.

But sure, at the time of the British Conquest one of the things the British did was ban all imports from France. And this ban or similar types of restrictions persisted for quite some time. When you have nothing coming into the country from France, well this means no books and no other cultural stuff as well.

I am not sure that the objective (par for the course in those days I am pretty sure) was solely assimilationist, as a main purpose was likely to favour trade with Britain in the new colony, and to give the upper hand to British colonists and businesspeople as opposed to the ones of French origin whose existing ties to France and its colonies were abruptly cut off.

It's all Colonialism 101.

I've also read in historical records how a source of French books for Quebec was at one time the United States, as no restrictions existed there, and the land border was of course quite porous.
I was wondering if there were any historical studies on just how much communication between the Quebecois French population and continental French populations. The printing press and trans-Atlantic travel were common throughout the period, Quebec had major ports, French culture from France was often held in some esteem especially among the wealthy in the British Empire for a good chunk of that time, and the US border was fairly porous so imagine there must've been a pretty steady transmission of ideas and media the whole time.
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Old 09-17-2013, 11:50 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
20,571 posts, read 25,620,517 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
I was wondering if there were any historical studies on just how much communication between the Quebecois French population and continental French populations. The printing press and trans-Atlantic travel were common throughout the period, Quebec had major ports, French culture from France was often held in some esteem especially among the wealthy in the British Empire for a good chunk of that time, and the US border was fairly porous so imagine there must've been a pretty steady transmission of ideas and media the whole time.
Sorry I don't have any official historical studies.

But consider that after the conquest of New France and the Treaty of Paris in 1763 that handed the territory over to Britain, the first French-flagged ship to enter the St. Lawrence River only did so in the 1850s. Close to 100 years later.

Everything points to there being very little contact and when it resumed it did so very slowly.

Certainly based on various discussions I've had over the course of my lifetime, the family histories of basically everyone I know do not show any ancestors at all arriving from France between the 1760s and the 1950s. I also don't know anyone at all in who is an old stock French-speaking Canadian who has known relatives in France that are the result of trans-Atlantic migrations that would have taken place prior to the 1950s or 1960s.

Also look at how the language evolved differently here, and how many amendments to French that took hold all over the world - including St-Pierre-et-Miquelon, Haiti, francophone Africa, Martinique, Guadeloupe, New Caledonia, Lebanon, etc., never took root here. And how many old expressions and words from the 1700s have disappeared from all these places but survived here until today in some cases.

Look at the folk culture and traditions, and how different they are.

It all points to a society that evolved in isolation from the rest of the French-speaking world.
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Old 02-12-2014, 10:25 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
78 posts, read 65,953 times
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As people mentioned above, there was little emigration from France during the 19th/20th centuries (French territories such as Algeria had to be settled by Spaniards and Italians in large numbers who were given French citizenship). Even during French rule there was never much migration to the New World, and what little there was peaked during the 17th century. Quebec's population growth depended on having children. In contrast to France, the Quebecois were among the most fertile people in the world, which is why their population grew from a mere 65,000 at the time of the British conquest.

Regarding Portugal/Brazil, my parents are from Portugal and I have spent quite a lot of time in both countries and from what I gather Portuguese people tend to know a lot about Brazilian popular culture where the same isn't as true. The Brazilian accent and slang is well understood in Portugal and during the 2000s a large number of Brazilians immigrated to Portugal, so there is a degree of familiarity with the culture. Portugal does "punch above its weight" in Brazil if you will though, during the 1990s Portuguese firms invested heavily in the country and Portugal's airline TAP is the largest foreign carrier in the country.

Portuguese continued to emigrate in large numbers to Brazil until the early 1960s. After that, the number of Portuguese moving to Brazil tended to be under 1,000 per year (that has changed in the past 5 years). So the image that many Brazilians have of Portuguese people tends to be one of poor backwards people and this became the source of jokes. Many in Brazil still think of Portuguese people as hicks. However, what I noticed is that almost everyone seems to know someone who is Portuguese or have a relative from Portugal and for the most part Brazilians seem to like Portuguese food. This is probably because the Portuguese have been the largest number of immigrants to the country even after independence (even surpassing the Italians).

As for Spain and Latin America, I noticed some countries seem to show more animosity towards Spain, especially Mexico. I think many people still blame modern Spaniards for the past (even though no one was alive then). Argentinians seem to like Spaniards and I know that many Argentines settled in Spain in the early 2000s and were generally well received. Cubans also seem to be well liked by the Spaniards, and the island is popular vacation spot for Spaniards. Many Cubans also have Spanish grandparents etc. as the island was the second most popular destination for Spanish emigrants after Argentina before 1940. Interestingly enough, Galicia was the largest source of emigrants so that in Latin America all Spaniards are often referred to as "Gallegos".

During Spain's economic boom in the 2000s, over 1 million Latin Americans moved to Spain. The largest numbers were from Ecuador, Colombia, Bolivia and Peru. However, most of these people had little connection to Spain and most were mestizos or of indigenous origins and there were problems with discrimination. I know that some have left Spain since the economy collapsed there. As I mentioned earlier, there were large numbers of Argentines who moved too, but most of these were able to come with Spanish passports as they had parents or grandparents born in Spain.

Finally with the Netherlands/Afrikaners. Like the Quebecois, there was little influence on the Afrikaners after the British conquered Cape Colony. Apparently Dutch and Afrikaans are mutually intelligible, however Afrikaans is more archaic. Like the Quebecois, the Afrikaners remained much more religious than their brethren in the mother-country. Though there was some Dutch emigration to South Africa, I think there were only 20,000 or so Dutch born people in the country by 1990. I believe that Dutch society tends to be more liberal.
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Old 06-28-2014, 08:59 PM
 
Location: Montreal
708 posts, read 763,047 times
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I'm thinking, maybe in addition to all the above reasons, it was the Navigation Acts which played a major role in French immigrants not going to post-1763 Quebec and Dutch immigrants not going to post-1795/post-1806 South Africa. This would be because the Navigation Acts caused the shipping routes (for migration and for trade) to/from British colonies to be mostly British, so that people sailing from France would have a relatively hard time getting to British North America and those from Holland would not get to the Cape Colony so directly. Does that make sense?
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Old 05-03-2016, 11:45 AM
 
617 posts, read 309,181 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paul1981 View Post
As people mentioned above, there was little emigration from France during the 19th/20th centuries (French territories such as Algeria had to be settled by Spaniards and Italians in large numbers who were given French citizenship). Even during French rule there was never much migration to the New World, and what little there was peaked during the 17th century. Quebec's population growth depended on having children. In contrast to France, the Quebecois were among the most fertile people in the world, which is why their population grew from a mere 65,000 at the time of the British conquest.

Regarding Portugal/Brazil, my parents are from Portugal and I have spent quite a lot of time in both countries and from what I gather Portuguese people tend to know a lot about Brazilian popular culture where the same isn't as true. The Brazilian accent and slang is well understood in Portugal and during the 2000s a large number of Brazilians immigrated to Portugal, so there is a degree of familiarity with the culture. Portugal does "punch above its weight" in Brazil if you will though, during the 1990s Portuguese firms invested heavily in the country and Portugal's airline TAP is the largest foreign carrier in the country.

Portuguese continued to emigrate in large numbers to Brazil until the early 1960s. After that, the number of Portuguese moving to Brazil tended to be under 1,000 per year (that has changed in the past 5 years). So the image that many Brazilians have of Portuguese people tends to be one of poor backwards people and this became the source of jokes. Many in Brazil still think of Portuguese people as hicks. However, what I noticed is that almost everyone seems to know someone who is Portuguese or have a relative from Portugal and for the most part Brazilians seem to like Portuguese food. This is probably because the Portuguese have been the largest number of immigrants to the country even after independence (even surpassing the Italians).

As for Spain and Latin America, I noticed some countries seem to show more animosity towards Spain, especially Mexico. I think many people still blame modern Spaniards for the past (even though no one was alive then). Argentinians seem to like Spaniards and I know that many Argentines settled in Spain in the early 2000s and were generally well received. Cubans also seem to be well liked by the Spaniards, and the island is popular vacation spot for Spaniards. Many Cubans also have Spanish grandparents etc. as the island was the second most popular destination for Spanish emigrants after Argentina before 1940. Interestingly enough, Galicia was the largest source of emigrants so that in Latin America all Spaniards are often referred to as "Gallegos".

During Spain's economic boom in the 2000s, over 1 million Latin Americans moved to Spain. The largest numbers were from Ecuador, Colombia, Bolivia and Peru. However, most of these people had little connection to Spain and most were mestizos or of indigenous origins and there were problems with discrimination. I know that some have left Spain since the economy collapsed there. As I mentioned earlier, there were large numbers of Argentines who moved too, but most of these were able to come with Spanish passports as they had parents or grandparents born in Spain.

Finally with the Netherlands/Afrikaners. Like the Quebecois, there was little influence on the Afrikaners after the British conquered Cape Colony. Apparently Dutch and Afrikaans are mutually intelligible, however Afrikaans is more archaic. Like the Quebecois, the Afrikaners remained much more religious than their brethren in the mother-country. Though there was some Dutch emigration to South Africa, I think there were only 20,000 or so Dutch born people in the country by 1990. I believe that Dutch society tends to be more liberal.

Portuguese, Angolans, Mozambicans, Cape Verdeans and others luso-speakers tend know a lot about Brazilian culture because soap operas, movies, music, books, singers and artists from Brazil have large presence in these countries.

Brazil import some culture from others Portuguese countries including Portugal BUT in small proportion because the difference of size between the countries of course.

But yes I think we have very close cultural connections similar in level like USA-UK.
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