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I have a hypothesis about your question, which was "Why are people in the Anglosphere against whaling?" Bear with me, I'm going somewhere with this.
I think that it may be partly because many humans tend to anthropomorphise certain animals, to attribute them with personhood and most humans are not comfortable with the idea of slaughtering and eating other persons whether or not those persons are human animals or other animals. One needs to understand what personhood truly means and understand that personhood cannot only be applied to human beings but to many beings. Personhood is not only a state of being a human, personhood is a unique state of being.
Personhood:
1 - the state or fact of being a person.
2 - the state or fact of being an individual or having human characteristics and feelings.
3 - Personhood is defined by characteristics such as consciousness, the ability to reason, self-movement, self-awareness and a capacity to communicate. Another way of defining personhood entails some relational interpretation of what it means to be a person. Personhood is often conceived of in terms of one’s ability to have relationships with other beings of the same species and the special relationships that beings have with beings of other species.
Cetaceans are persons living in another world. They are conscious, they are intelligent and capable of reason, self-movement, co-operation, feelings such as love, compassion, anger, revenge, grief and mourning, they are self-aware and they have the capacity to communicate with each other. They have individual relationships with each other, with their community (the pod) and they have a centuries long proven capability to interact, to co-operate in teams and have relationships and proven teamwork with each other and with beings of other species including humans. This is personhood.
Cetaceans aren't the only animals that possess the qualities of personhood and the ability to work in teamwork with humans - quick examples would be elephants, canines, equines, cattle such as oxen, camels, reindeer - however, most of those other animals have to be trained by humans to work as efficient team members with humans ..... but cetaceans do not always need the training.
Cetaceans in the wild are capable of teamwork with humans through their own choice using their own reasoning. I do not know of any other species of wild animals that will choose of their own volition to co-operate or work with humans, to play and express humour with other species, or to physically help other species that are in distress. Nor do I know of any other species of animals that will as an entire group lay down their own lives and perish as a group rather than abandon a single loved member of the pod who is in distress or dying the way pilot whales do. Humans who hunt and eat pilot whales are aware of that characteristic of compassion and they exploit and take advantage of it under the guise of pretending they are just stupid animals. That characteristic (compassion) in pilot whales is personhood and in a certain sense pilot whales and many other cetaceans may be considered to be much better and more highly evolved persons than are the humans who slaughter and eat them.
Most evolved humans do not wish to entertain the idea of eating other beings to whom they attribute personhood. It is on a subconscious level too much like cannibalism which most people consider to be an abomination. Nobody really needs to eat whales, dolphins and porpoises. You can make all the excuses you want to about how they are killed humanely but there is not really any excuse for the barbarous inhumanity of one person eating another person simply because they want to.
Those links contains opinions from animal rights groups, I am not interested in that. Animal rights groups turns and twists things in their own ways that misleads the viewers and readers into thinking that all slaughter is cruel and inhumane. They do this by showing the absolutely worst footage they can find of factory farming, cow slaughter, pig slaughter, sheep slaughter, seal hunting etc and yes even whaling to make it look like ALL slaughter is like that. For example, when the animal rights groups in my country made propaganda against the mink farms outside my town, they show the absolutely worst images they could find, that was exceptional cases. As result, many of those who reads the reports by these "activists", believes that literally all mink fur farming is like that.
This is how animal rights propaganda works, and this is how they make money through donations from emotional wrecks around the world. The people who run this type of groups are powerful, and (at least in the Anglosphere) gets access to big social media like BBC etc.
The Whale and Dolphin Conservation Society is a vile and propagandaistic British animal rights group, just like the group who made propaganda against fur farms outside my town. This group is really no different from PETA, except that this group only focuses on some specific animals and not all animals.
By the way, that photo there, I do not see anything cruel or inhumane on it, do you? There is lots of blood, and they are about to kill a pilot whale, but you dont see the killing. It usually takes around 10 or 20 seconds to stun them by shoving the spinal lance into their spine, and then cutting the main arteries to the brain, instantly killing the whale. None of that is shown on that photo, since they are about to do it right there. That there is lots of blood around it does not make it more brutal, but animal rights activists loves this type of photos cause blood ALWAYS gets the attention that these disgusting "activists" wants.
I linked to a video in this thread where you see in detail how the killing is really done, in a proper video by a local Faroe islander. In the video you can see that it takes like 9 or 10 seconds, 20 at most, from the moment that they are stunned, to the moment that their main arteries to the brain are severed with a very sharp knife, killing the whales instantly.
Whaling methods at high seas are also improving, for example, explosive harpoons were invented only to reduce the suffering and make the process faster. I believe that animals should always be killed in the most humane way possible. On land, a bolt gun, a knife or simply a bullet might be the most humane way to kill an animal. On high seas its different, there, explosive harpoons are the most humane way possible, and way more humane than the previous methods of hunting whales with classic harpoons without bombs. Harpoons without bombs are not legal anywhere today, except a few Inuit communities in Greenland, Canada and Alaska where they hunt traditionally (and yes, traditional killing by natives does take alot longer than modern commercial methods).
In the Faroe Islands there is also legal hunting of harbor porpoises, a very small and abundant cetacean that is not endangered. The method of hunting those is simply by shooting them with a shotgun with one blast each, killing them instantly. I am sure however that the whale hugging nutbags and probably the public opinion in the Anglosphere will find that "inhumane" as well...
I find groups such as WWF (Worldwide Life Fund and not Wrestling - LOL) to be extremely fair in their approach.
I am afraid I can not agree that whaling is free from animal suffering.
Furthermore the fact that we don't eat whale meat in Anglosphere countries and use other synthetic chemicals to make items once made from whale, such as Makeup, shoe polish, soap, car wax, perfume, transmission fluid etc means that today whaling is both cruel and indeed pointless.
The same applies to horse meat, we wouldn't dream of eating animals such as horses in the UK, however across the channel in France they don't see anything wrong with eating horse meat. It's just cultural differences, indeed you wouldn't eat a dog or cat in Sweden or in most westernised countries, and this can be applied to numerous animals and even insects which are happily eaten in the Far East and other such places but which would not make the dinner plate in the west. There are also religious differences, with certain religions banning the eating of pork, shell fish or beef, indeed the Cow is sacred in Hindu Culture. So it's not just the Anglosphere that discriminates in terms of which animals can be killed or eaten, it is a global phenomenon.
I am afraid I can not agree that whaling is free from animal suffering.
Furthermore the fact that we don't eat whale meat in Anglosphere countries and use other synthetic chemicals to make items once made from whale, such as Makeup, shoe polish, soap, car wax, perfume, transmission fluid etc means that today whaling is both cruel and indeed pointless.
The same applies to horse meat, we wouldn't dream of eating animals such as horses in the UK, however across the channel in France they don't see anything wrong with eating horse meat. It's just cultural differences, indeed you wouldn't eat a dog or cat in Sweden or in most westernised countries, and this can be applied to numerous animals and even insects which are happily eaten in the Far East and other such places but which would not make the dinner plate in the west. There are also religious differences, with certain religions banning the eating of pork, shell fish or beef, indeed the Cow is sacred in Hindu Culture. So it's not just the Anglosphere that discriminates in terms of which animals can be killed or eaten, it is a global phenomenon.
I agree. However, there is one big difference there. Hindus in India and Nepal does not go around protesting and demonizing countries where people eats beef, even though killing cows (or other bovines) for any reason is illegal in Nepal and almost entire India. But they dont go around protesting against countries where its legal, and they dont have any public opinion that people of other cultures would be barbarians and monsters for eating it. They just dont eat it themselves, and they're fine with that. And many Hindus does not eat any meat at all for that matter.
The reason why I fully respect the Hindus in this is cause they do not have any public opinion that my country would be barbaric of cruel for consuming beef, and cause they dont have any enormous smearing and protest campaigns against Sweden and other countries where cows are killed and consumed. Their main concern seems to be to just not eat beef themselves, and not to prevent or stop other people in other countries from killing cows and consuming beef. Thats the very big difference between the holy cow in the Hindu world, and the holy whale in the Anglosphere world.
It is true that most Swedes would not eat dog or cat, but we do eat horse meat though and I had it for dinner last week. I dont know why we eat horse in Sweden, but I think it might have to do with the enormous French influence on our country during the Reformation. Horse meat is especially common in Dalarna in Central Sweden.
As for dog meat in Europe and the western world, thats actually still eaten by farmers in the cantons of Appenzell and St. Gallen in Switzerland (not to be confused with Sweden). The dogs in those 2 cantons are raised and slaughtered humanely under national animal protection laws, and its an old and still living tradition to eat dog meat there. In case you wonder, I am not against that either and I would be appalled if people in other countries started demonizing them for just practising their diet and food culture that they are fully entiteled to.
In the countries and native tribes where whales are still hunted its not for any of those reasons you mentioned. The reason for hunting whales in the current whaling nations and whaling tribes is the unique meat that cannot be replaced, not anymore than pork or beef could be replaced with something else. Furthermore, its seen as an important part of their cultures and national identities to be able to hunt and eat whales, kind of like killing turkeys for Thanksgiving in America and Canada. And I'm sure that Americans and Canadians would not like if foreigners in other western countries started demonizing and harassing them for their annual turkey killing/eating tradition.
In the point of view that we no longer need whale oil for products like soap, shoe polish, car wax etc it may seem pointless and unnessecary to kill whales. But it does not seem pointless if you live in a culture where whale meat is eaten. This aspect seems to be very hard to understand for those living in the Anglosphere.
I think we in Sweden has an easier time understanding that aspect considering that we live right next to a whaling nation and its actually not too uncommon that Swedes living near the Norwegian border eats whale meat then and then.
Last edited by Helsingborgaren; 12-09-2013 at 09:45 AM..
I agree. However, there is one little difference there. Hindus in India and Nepal does not go around protesting and demonizing countries where people eats beef, even though killing cows (or other bovines) for any reason is illegal in Nepal and almost entire India. But they dont go around protesting against countries where its legal, and they dont have any public opinion that people of other cultures would be barbarians and monsters for eating it. They just dont eat it themselves, and they're fine with that. And many Hindus does not eat any meat at all.
I don't think many people in Briton or indeed the so-called Anglosphere believe Norwegians or indeed Swedes in general are barbaric and nor do the vast majority of people take to the streets in protest. The vast majority of people just find any sort of animal cruelty repugnant in general and this covers a wide array of areas and not just whaling.
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Originally Posted by MagnusPetersson
It is true that most Swedes would not eat dog or cat, but we do eat horse meat though and I had it for dinner last week. I dont know why we eat horse in Sweden, but I think it might have to do with the enormous French influence on our country during the Reformation.
As for dog meat in Europe, thats actually still eaten by farmers in the cantons of Appenzell and St. Gallen in Switzerland (not to be confused with Sweden). The dogs in those 2 cantons are raised and slaughtered humanely under national animal protection laws, and its an old and still living tradition to eat dog meat there. In case you wonder, I am not against that either and I would be apalled if people in other countries started demonizing them for just practising their food culture that they are entiteled to.
As I have already pointed out there are cultural and religious differences around what foods are deemed appropriate or even legal to eat and this is reflected in the fact that certain animals are not eaten in English speaking nations. However we also have a right to protest and if a minority wish to protest against animal cruelty including the slaughter of whales then so be it, it's called a democracy.
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Originally Posted by MagnusPetersson
In the countries and native tribes where whales are still hunted its not for any of those reasons you mentioned. The reason for hunting whales in the current whaling nations and whaling tribes is the unique meat that cannot be replaced, not anymore than pork or beef could be replaced with something else. Furthermore, its seen as an important part of their cultures and national identities to be able to hunt and eat whales, kind of like killing turkeys for Thanksgiving in America and Canada. And I'm sure that Americans and Canadians would not like if foreigners in other western countries started demonizing and harassing them for their annual turkey killing/eating tradition.
Whaling is a lot more controversial than you suggest, and it involves chasing whales until they are tired or run in land and then physically cutting them and severing their spinal cords, not the most pleasant of ways to die. Hence the WWF and other groups opposition to it, if it was as humane as you paint it then there would be little controversy surrounding it. Then again Foie Gras a French delicacy is also horrible cruel, and Animal Rights protestors were out in force a few weeks ago at the opening of Fortnum and Mason's new shop at St Pancras which stocks Foie Gras. Whilst in Spain a number of cruel past times still go on from the slaughter of bulls through to throwing live goats from the top of a bell tower or the beating to deaths of Donkeys in the name of a festival. All in all apart from the whaling the Norwegians and Swedes are not really that cruel by international standards, but that doesn't mean I enjoy seeing images of poor whales being slaughtered in the shallows or seal cubs clubbed to death. In an ideal world animals would be treated with the respect and understanding they deserve whatever the historical or cultural context of what is being justified.
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Originally Posted by MagnusPetersson
In the point of view that we no longer need whale oil for products like soap, shoe polish, car wax etc it may seem pointless and unnessecary to kill whales. But it does not seem pointless if you live in a culture where whale meat is eaten. This aspect seems to be very hard to understand for those living in the Anglosphere.
I think we in Sweden has an easier time understanding that aspect considering that we live right next to a whaling nation and its actually not too uncommon that Swedes living near the Norwegian border eats whale then and then.
The culture may well be different in Norway and Sweden, just as it is in Iceland and indeed Japan but should culture or tradition be a justification for animal cruelty. We don't hunt foxes, engage in legal dog or co*k fighting, bear baiting or engage in numerous other traditional historic past times in the UK anymore and nor do we kill whales, as our culture has changed with the times and we feel a need to protect animals from such cruelty. Then again Britain was the country who gave the world Charles Darwin and Darwinism which in essence changed our view of animals, as we were now clearly scientifically animals ourselves who had evolved via evolution. At the same time the debate regarding animal ethics has been ranging in Britain for centuries, and it is little wonder there are so many animal charities, animal rights groups and environmental groups in the UK as a consequence.
I have a hypothesis about your question, which was "Why are people in the Anglosphere against whaling?" Bear with me, I'm going somewhere with this......
I have read your text. I will still not find it okay to add personhood to non-humans, thats very dangerous. If we start with cetaceans, then what's next? Elephants? Apes? Dogs? Pigs?
Organisations like for example PETA considers all animal life to be equal with humans, and they do not think there is any difference between eating a pig or eating a human, for them thats the same thing as cannibalism. No thanks, I prefer being a human with my human rights and priviledges that I am born with, and I do not wish to share that with any animals (e.g non-humans). A very dangerous slippery slope could start if we started doing something like that. By the way, what is your views on Canadian Inuits who eats cetaceans like bowheads, narwhals and belugas? Do you consider them as cannibals and murderers?
I don't think many people in Briton or indeed the so-called Anglosphere believe Norwegians or indeed Swedes in general are barbaric and nor do the vast majority of people take to the streets in protest. The vast majority of people just find any sort of animal cruelty repugnant in general and this covers a wide array of areas and not just whaling.
It is absurd to claim that the hunting of an entire order of mammals ranging from porpoises (smaller than a roe deer) to big whales has to be inherently cruel. I still think its more because they view them as "beautiful and mysterious"
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As I have already pointed out there are cultural and religious differences around what foods are deemed appropriate or even legal to eat and this is reflected in the fact that certain animals are not eaten in English speaking nations. However we also have a right to protest and if a minority wish to protest against animal cruelty including the slaughter of whales then so be it, it's called a democracy.
Well, India and Nepal also has democracy, and I dont see them protesting and taking it to the streets that people in other countries consumes beef. Thats cause they accept the fact that other countries has different cultures that involves the eating of an animal that Hindus does not eat, cows.
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Whaling is a lot more controversial than you suggest, and it involves chasing whales until they are tired or run in land and then physically cutting them and severing their spinal cords, not the most pleasant of ways to die. Hence the WWF and other groups opposition to it, if it was as humane as you paint it then there would be little controversy surrounding it. Then again Foie Gras a French delicacy is also horrible cruel, and Animal Rights protestors were out in force a few weeks ago at the opening of Fortnum and Mason's new shop at St Pancras which stocks Foie Gras. Whilst in Spain a number of cruel past times still go on from the slaughter of bulls through to throwing live goats from the top of a bell tower or the beating to deaths of Donkeys in the name of a festival. All in all apart from the whaling the Norwegians and Swedes are not really that cruel by international standards, but that doesn't mean I enjoy seeing images of poor whales being slaughtered in the shallows or seal cubs clubbed to death. In an ideal world animals would be treated with the respect and understanding they deserve whatever the historical or cultural context of what is being justified.
Its like rounding up cows and sheeps for slaughter. Whaling and seal hunting is not comparable to animal torture festivals where animals are tortured just for the sake of it. Seal hunting is another persecuted and usually humane form of marine mammal hunting. The Hakapik, which is used to kill some seals with, is a very humane weapon that kills seals in less than a minute. However, most seals in Norway and Sweden today are shot with rifles, ironically it usually takes longer to kill them with a rifle since thats at a longer distance which makes it possible for them to get wounded and lost. Hunting at close range with a hakapik makes it much easier to kill them instantly.
Whale and seal hunting is also not comparable to foie gras, which is very prolonged cruelty just to make the resulting product taste better. When it comes to whale and seal hunting, those involved really tries their best to make the suffering as short and quickly as possible and is usually done in less than a minute, sometimes just a matter of seconds. This cannot be said about animal torture festivals in Spain or foie gras, where prolonged suffering is fully intentional and a part of the whole process.
Here is a professional video proving in detail that hunting seals with a hakapik is humane, all in English:
The culture may well be different in Norway and Sweden, just as it is in Iceland and indeed Japan but should culture or tradition be a justification for animal cruelty. We don't hunt foxes, engage in legal dog or co*k fighting, bear baiting or engage in numerous other traditional historic past times in the UK anymore and nor do we kill whales, as our culture has changed with the times and we feel a need to protect animals from such cruelty. Then again Britain was the country who gave the world Charles Darwin and Darwinism which in essence changed our view of animals, as we were now clearly scientifically animals ourselves who had evolved via evolution. At the same time the debate regarding animal ethics has been ranging in Britain for centuries, and it is little wonder there are so many animal charities, animal rights groups and environmental groups in the UK as a consequence.
There is still plenty of meat eating traditions in the UK that might be considered as cruel by animal rights activists since animals are killed for the meat. For example, you bring up bear baiting and c*ck fighting which is 100% cruelty for entertainment. Thats not comparable with whaling and seal hunting where people do their best to kill the animals as quickly as possible, and NOT for entertainment of prolonged suffering.
Last edited by Helsingborgaren; 12-09-2013 at 11:13 AM..
It is absurd to claim that the hunting of an entire order of mammals ranging from porpoises (smaller than a roe deer) to big whales has to be inherently cruel. I still think its more because they view them as "beautiful and mysterious"
Why is it so absurd, you state that it's absurd but don't back up your assertion with any real evidence. If you go to numerous highly respected wild life groups they have websites full of why killing numerous species of whales is wrong and why it is cruel.
Well, India and Nepal also has democracy, and I dont see them protesting and taking it to the streets that people in other countries consumes beef. Thats cause they accept the fact that other countries has different cultures that involves the eating of an animal that Hindus does not eat, cows.
Hindhus have protested about beef in the past, and even damaged a McDonalds in India. Although the farming of beef is a very different issue to the hunting down and slaughtering of Whales.
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Originally Posted by MagnusPetersson
Its like rounding up cows and sheeps for slaughter. Whaling and seal hunting is not comparable to animal torture festivals where animals are tortured just for the sake of it. Seal hunting is another persecuted and usually humane form of marine mammal hunting. The Hakapik, which is used to kill some seals with, is a very humane weapon that kills seals in less than a minute. However, most seals in Norway and Sweden today are shot with rifles, ironically it usually takes longer to kill them with a rifle since thats at a longer distance which makes it possible for them to get wounded and lost. Hunting at close range with a hakapik makes it much easier to kill them instantly.
Both whaling and the clubbing to death of seal pups are controversial issues in many peoples eyes, and have been controversial precisely because of the levels of cruelty involved.
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Originally Posted by MagnusPetersson
Whale and seal hunting is also not comparable to foie gras, which is very prolonged cruelty just to make the resulting product taste better. When it comes to whale and seal hunting, those involved really tries their best to make the suffering as short and quickly as possible and is usually done in less than a minute, sometimes just a matter of seconds. This cannot be said about animal torture festivals in Spain or foie gras, where prolonged suffering is fully intentional and a part of the whole process.
Here is a professional video proving in detail that hunting seals with a hakapik is humane, all in English:
I didn't set out to compare levels of animal cruelty in terms of some type of cruelty scale, I was merely pointing out that animal rights groups are not merely singling Norway out and many people firmly believe that all such activities constitute cruelty.
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Originally Posted by MagnusPetersson
There is still plenty of meat eating traditions in the UK that might be considered as cruel by animal rights activists since animals are killed for the meat. For example, you bring up bear baiting and c*ck fighting which is 100% cruelty for entertainment. Thats not comparable with whaling and seal hunting where people do their best to kill the animals as quickly as possible, and NOT for entertainment of prolonged suffering.
Animals are farmed for their meat the world over in virtually every country on earth, however the UK has some of the most stringent animal laws in the world as do other parts of the so called Anglosphere that this thread seems to dwell upon. As for bear baiting, c*ck fighting, fox hunting and other such activities they have all been made illegal over the centuries, whilst come 2015, Circuses will no longer be able to use wild animals such as lions, tigers, elephants etc in the UK, thus further protecting animals from exploitation for mere entertainment purposes.
whaling works there are not many alternatives to the efficent nature of a biological reactor as big as a whale (eco system yes small to big please) time for genetically engineered humans are not far (hey there are mainstream movies) the timing of the harvest can be opinionated (for that matter the need for such but that is not my concern (dont hate the player hate the game neither actually enoy the nature of the circle of life) bystanders are not part of the game oh really why is it the small guy first then maybe anyhow it will eventually be eat woodchucks with chemistry flavor or eat what you can afford well untill then I would like to be the ahem voice of conformity
Why is it so absurd, you state that it's absurd but don't back up your assertion with any real evidence. If you go to numerous highly respected wild life groups they have websites full of why killing numerous species of whales is wrong and why it is cruel.
That's the EXACT SAME type of propaganda that the scumbags of the Swedish group "Animal Rights Alliance" used against the struggling fur farmers in my municipality Sölvesborg. They showed exceptional cases of cruelty at the farms in my area, to make it look like all fur farming is like that. Of course, they never ever mentioned that most fur farming in my area is humane, and I know its humane cause I have seen it with my own eyes and I know some of the fur farmers personally. I know how it is to be among the persecuted. By the way, the man talking in that video is a part of the Norwegian animal rights group NOAH, one of the groups that was part of the persecution against the fur farmers here in Sölvesborg in southern Sweden.
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Hindhus have protested about beef in the past, and even damaged a McDonalds in India. Although the farming of beef is a very different issue to the hunting down and slaughtering of Whales.
Depends on which farms and which factories you are talking about.
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Both whaling and the clubbing to death of seal pups are controversial issues in many peoples eyes, and have been controversial precisely because of the levels of cruelty involved.
They are misguided. For example, many people thinks its cruel to club seal pups just because they are seal pups, and not really paying attention to how quickly they are killed. The animal rights scumbags shows photos of white coat seal pups that are not even hunted, and gets the attention that way. They are the same type of people who persecuted my municipality for fur farming.
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I didn't set out to compare levels of animal cruelty in terms of some type of cruelty scale, I was merely pointing out that animal rights groups are not merely singling Norway out and many people firmly believe that all such activities constitute cruelty.
People are extremely misguided if they believe that hunting whales and seals automatically makes it cruel. I have even showed evidence in a video earlier in this thread how you can effectively kill a pilot whale in 9 seconds.
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Animals are farmed for their meat the world over in virtually every country on earth, however the UK has some of the most stringent animal laws in the world as do other parts of the so called Anglosphere that this thread seems to dwell upon. As for bear baiting, c*ck fighting, fox hunting and other such activities they have all been made illegal over the centuries, whilst come 2015, Circuses will no longer be able to use wild animals such as lions, tigers, elephants etc in the UK, thus further protecting animals from exploitation for mere entertainment.
Norway and Sweden also has some of the most stringent animal welfare laws in Europe and the world, along with the UK and Switzerland. For example at slaughterhouses in Norway and Sweden, the animal has to be stunned before slaughter and things like halal or kosher slaughter is not legal. Gestation crates are also outlawed. However, hunting laws are different. You cant have a law that all wild animals has to be stunned before you shoot them, I guess its like that in the UK as well as I dont think that hunters goes around stunning the deers before shooting them. And like in the UK, circuses are also beginning to phase out the wild animals in Norway and Sweden. And likewise, foie gras production is outlawed in Norway and Sweden as well, of course.
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