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Old 04-29-2015, 09:15 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MassNative2891 View Post
Lines on a map don't make a country. The reason that Africa has so much civil strife is because many of the 'nations' that exist, shouldn't.

Nigeria, Sudan, Senegal, Liberia, and Sierra Leone are all great examples. India and China work as an entity because rulers conquered those regions and consolidated prior to European exploration. Yet here we are trying to figure why Africans who have blood feuds with each other can't get along.
great comments.

On the other hand, such regional conflicts are probably deliberate by design. Do the European powers WANT a stable and prosperous Africa? I highly doubt that, just like the US will never want a 100% peaceful middle east with absolutely no conflicts. It is through all the never ending regional conflicts that Europe and the US get to continue dominating the world, and get the chance to extend their power way beyond their borders, on matters which have nothing to do with them.

And yes, China formed a unionized country more than 2000 years ago, so once the identity is established, no matter how many times it is divided, separated and invaded, it would always reunite as one nation because they share the same language, culture and tradition. Can't say for sub-Saharan Africa.

Lines on a map don't make a country. Well said.
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Old 04-29-2015, 09:35 AM
 
Location: Hyde Park, MA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
great comments.

On the other hand, such regional conflicts are probably deliberate by design. Do the European powers WANT a stable and prosperous Africa? I highly doubt that, just like the US will never want a 100% peaceful middle east with absolutely no conflicts. It is through all the never ending regional conflicts that Europe and the US get to continue dominating the world, and get the chance to extend their power way beyond their borders, on matters which have nothing to do with them.

And yes, China formed a unionized country more than 2000 years ago, so once the identity is established, no matter how many times it is divided, separated and invaded, it would always reunite as one nation because they share the same language, culture and tradition. Can't say for sub-Saharan Africa.

Lines on a map don't make a country. Well said.
Right. An even better example would be Liberia. African Americans repatriated there and then came right back after a couple of civil disturbances. Their place was not in Liberia. "Liberia" would've only succeeded in the manner Americans wanted to if they had an "Israel" style arrangement; AAs being the beneficiary of US support and investment.

Alas, all Black people are the same; so they didn't need extra protection.
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Old 04-29-2015, 02:38 PM
 
Location: London, UK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MassNative2891 View Post
Biafra would've been a great country but unfortunately the UK and Russia decided that the Igbo and others didn't have the right to self-determination.

I've said it once, I'll say it again. Lines on a map don't make a country. The reason that Africa has so much civil strife is because many of the 'nations' that exist, shouldn't.

Nigeria, Sudan, Senegal, Liberia, and Sierra Leone are all great examples. India and China work as an entity because rulers conquered those regions and consolidated prior to European exploration. Yet here we are trying to figure why Africans who have blood feuds with each other can't get along.
Great post.

I read an article on Biafra it could have been a very prosperous and stable Country.

Nigeria stands out to me in the sense the Country seems so culturally divided. Muslim north with terrorist attacks and Christian south with a completely different culture - like night and day.
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Old 04-29-2015, 09:40 PM
 
Location: Sydney, Australia
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Botswana isn't bad from what I heard.
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Old 04-29-2015, 09:46 PM
 
Location: In transition
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I'm curious how many countries Africa would have if we let the Africans themselves draw their own borders instead of using the ones European colonization established...
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Old 04-30-2015, 07:06 AM
 
Location: London, UK
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Yeah Botswana looks good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deneb78 View Post
I'm curious how many countries Africa would have if we let the Africans themselves draw their own borders instead of using the ones European colonization established...
LOADS.



I'd guess some ethnic nations would join together to form a federal republic.
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Old 04-30-2015, 07:47 AM
 
Location: Hyde Park, MA
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Originally Posted by P London View Post
I'd guess some ethnic nations would join together to form a federal republic.
I'd assume the ethnicities that share religion would stay together. So most of Northern Africa would remain the same. Ethiopia and Eritrea probably wouldn't change much, as well.
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Old 04-30-2015, 11:19 AM
 
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Re: "Hey catch a wake-up call! It wasn't that easy for colonial powers such as France, Britain, Belgium, Portugal to let go. Even after independance, puppet governments were set up and supported Westerners interests and then it was in the middle of the Cold War, in which prolonged wars and civil wars supported either by the West or Soviet Bloc took decades long. See the mess, so before judging Africa, look into the past. Young Africans are not doing too bad, if we consider all the political turmoil, they have been through"

Thus the above kind of makes sense for the Chinese to be apparently picking up speed there especially with trade among African nations. It would seem they've escaped the taint of all that earlier colonialism. On the other hand, I'd be curious if Africa feels trade has worked well with China which needs its natural resources. Ideally that trade should benefit both. Question is is it? Do Africans like that Chinese setup? Are they indeed making gains?
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Old 04-30-2015, 01:36 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post

Thus the above kind of makes sense for the Chinese to be apparently picking up speed there especially with trade among African nations. It would seem they've escaped the taint of all that earlier colonialism. On the other hand, I'd be curious if Africa feels trade has worked well with China which needs its natural resources. Ideally that trade should benefit both. Question is is it? Do Africans like that Chinese setup? Are they indeed making gains?
Of course they gain. What's bad about having better roads and other infrastructure? I am puzzled about stories saying China is "colonizing" ... since when investment and trading is colonizing? Did China put puppet governments in Africa? Did China force Africa countries to vote in a certain way in the UN? Does the massive trading make Canada a colony of the US?

The difference between Chinese aid and Western aid is that the former rarely comes with political conditions, while the latter almost always do. And the Chinese do everything a lot faster and cheaper. I had the pleasure of talking to some local people in Tanzania, who told me that they like the Chinese presence. To build the same thing, it cost the Chinese company 6 months versus 18 months if by a French or American company, at a fraction of the cost.

China gets natural resources in return. Of course, it is business and one of course wants something in return. Africa could say no if they don't want to. No one forces them to sell natural resources, but what's wrong with that? That's called trading. Australia sells tons of iron ore to China every year, is it being taken advantage of, or does that help Australia's economy immensely?

Don't get me wrong, the Chinese are mostly outright racists when it comes to black people, and they would never want to integrate with the local community (they don't want to integrate in North America or Australia either) while the Europeans/Americans do (I think), but business is business. All this story about Chinese new-colonialism in Africa is nothing but fear mongering and completely despicable.
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Old 04-30-2015, 02:58 PM
 
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Well you hit the point directly. The criticism I've read about is the idea that Africa gives them the raw materials and imports their cheaper goods. Question is is that good for Africa in terms of economic development. I'm curious what Africans themselves say about their relationship with this new partner.
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