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Old 04-05-2014, 06:53 PM
 
Location: Colorado
1,524 posts, read 1,821,543 times
Reputation: 2133

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Quote:
Originally Posted by xander.XVII View Post
Patriotism is good, Nationalism isn't.
The proof? Look at European history from 1792 up to 1945.
This is the picture often painted. But it goes both ways. Nationalism is simply another ideology, neither good nor bad. It depends on how it is being used.
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Old 04-05-2014, 07:10 PM
 
1,530 posts, read 1,104,202 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
This is the picture often painted. But it goes both ways. Nationalism is simply another ideology, neither good nor bad. It depends on how it is being used.
Well, Nationalism is the firm belief that your Nation/Culture is superiour to others: it might just lead to arrogance in nationalist people but it can also lead to dangerous policies by government.
Nationalism, especially modern one, is essentially the firm thought of defending your country's actions regardless of their fairness and rightfulness, whereas patriotism means to be proud of your country and to be firmly willing to work to improve it but to be also aware of your country's mistake (NOT to feel guilty beware) and to admit your country's fault.
I am the first who says that Italy is a corrupted, ****ty handled and badly administered country with countless of unexploited touristic and mind resources.
I am the first who criticizes Italians, the same people who elected Berlusconi and are rather indifferent to what our politicians do in spite of their evident and undeniable incapability of ruling the country: all this instead of protesting and getting furious.
These are things a Nationalist is rather unlikely to admit.
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Old 04-05-2014, 08:12 PM
 
Location: Colorado
1,524 posts, read 1,821,543 times
Reputation: 2133
Quote:
Originally Posted by xander.XVII View Post
Well, Nationalism is the firm belief that your Nation/Culture is superiour to others: it might just lead to arrogance in nationalist people but it can also lead to dangerous policies by government.
Nationalism, especially modern one, is essentially the firm thought of defending your country's actions regardless of their fairness and rightfulness, whereas patriotism means to be proud of your country and to be firmly willing to work to improve it but to be also aware of your country's mistake (NOT to feel guilty beware) and to admit your country's fault.
I am the first who says that Italy is a corrupted, ****ty handled and badly administered country with countless of unexploited touristic and mind resources.
I am the first who criticizes Italians, the same people who elected Berlusconi and are rather indifferent to what our politicians do in spite of their evident and undeniable incapability of ruling the country: all this instead of protesting and getting furious.
These are things a Nationalist is rather unlikely to admit.
I think here lies the problem. You are defining nationalism as believing your nation is superior. This definition is not the primary meaning of nationalism and better describes jingoism or chauvinism. What you are describing is the tertiary definition of nationalism.

nationalism (plural nationalisms)
  1. Patriotism; the idea of supporting one's country and culture.
  2. Support for the creation of a sovereign nation (which does not currently exist). Basque nationalism, Kurdish nationalism
  3. Jingoism; the support of one nation's interests to the exclusion of others; the hatred of other nations.
Nationalism has become a dirty word; a synonym for chauvinism in the minds of many. This is largely thanks to the events of 1914-1945 when it became apparent to the common man that nationalism was being abused to achieve material or economic gains. Most notably, the fascist movement has stained the word "nationalism" for generations, and many identify nationalism with fascist policies. However, these are extreme cases of nationalism, and as mentioned before, are better described as jingoism or chauvinism.

A nationalist does what is in the best interest of his or her people. A nationalist supports his or her country or culture. This can be either good or bad depending on how it is used.
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Old 04-05-2014, 08:29 PM
 
Location: Sudbury, ON, Canada
3,389 posts, read 3,563,956 times
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This is a perfect summary of my feelings. I don't understand even the slightest inclinations of national pride. Do something to make a name for yourself instead of just piggybacking on some invasion or sports victories that happened within some arbitrary lines.


Doug Stanhope view on nationalism - YouTube
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Old 04-05-2014, 09:44 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,673 posts, read 63,644,622 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red_Devil View Post
because not all cultures are equal.

By "not equal", to you mean that some are better than others? Give some examples. Let's see if you name a culture that is better than yours.

How long does it take for a group of people to become a culture? Is 300 years long enough for the American people to become a culture, or does it take longer than that?
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Old 04-05-2014, 10:47 PM
 
Location: M I N N E S O T A
14,558 posts, read 14,736,228 times
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why is it that so many patriotic people get labeled nationalist.

say one good thing about Country A
some reactions- omg!! you chest thumping brainwashed nationalist freak!!

doesn't help that sometimes the stereotypical citizen of Country A is seen as being overly patriotic / nationalist so they assume everyone who says just one little positive thing is a nationalist.
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Old 04-06-2014, 03:17 AM
 
579 posts, read 529,045 times
Reputation: 609
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
By "not equal", to you mean that some are better than others? Give some examples. Let's see if you name a culture that is better than yours.

How long does it take for a group of people to become a culture? Is 300 years long enough for the American people to become a culture, or does it take longer than that?
European culture is the most intellectual. African culture is the most superior at sports. Etc
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Old 04-06-2014, 04:19 AM
 
1,530 posts, read 1,104,202 times
Reputation: 1869
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
I think here lies the problem. You are defining nationalism as believing your nation is superior. This definition is not the primary meaning of nationalism and better describes jingoism or chauvinism. What you are describing is the tertiary definition of nationalism.

nationalism (plural nationalisms)
  1. Patriotism; the idea of supporting one's country and culture.
  2. Support for the creation of a sovereign nation (which does not currently exist). Basque nationalism, Kurdish nationalism
  3. Jingoism; the support of one nation's interests to the exclusion of others; the hatred of other nations.
Nationalism has become a dirty word; a synonym for chauvinism in the minds of many. This is largely thanks to the events of 1914-1945 when it became apparent to the common man that nationalism was being abused to achieve material or economic gains. Most notably, the fascist movement has stained the word "nationalism" for generations, and many identify nationalism with fascist policies. However, these are extreme cases of nationalism, and as mentioned before, are better described as jingoism or chauvinism.

A nationalist does what is in the best interest of his or her people. A nationalist supports his or her country or culture. This can be either good or bad depending on how it is used.
Your definition includes all spectra of the the concept of "loving your country".
As you know, what you are saying is that "nationalism" if done "for the good sake of the country is good", now, take out "nationalism" and put "patriotism" and you have my words.
Now, since the concept of an idea gets its reputation from what it was used for: it's fairly evident that Nationalism has become synonym with "jingoism and chauvinism" (which by the way are words invented later), in other words, "Nationalism" is the extreme of the concept of "loving your country" whereas "patriotism" means the moderate part.
Said and acknowledged that, we can safely reckon that what you called "Nationalism" includes two main parts or extremes:
1) PATRIOTISM--> Which is what you defined "good"
2)JINGOISM/CHAUVINISM--> Which is what we defined "bad".
Now, since Nationalism has increasingly gone to define the latter, it's evident that you simply switched words: our beliefs the same.
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Old 04-06-2014, 04:30 AM
 
1,039 posts, read 732,450 times
Reputation: 604
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red_Devil View Post
That's an interesting point and I tend to agree

I caution people from going too far and saying "Nationalism doesn't matter because all nations are equal" because not all cultures are equal.
I would say: All nations are equal, but each of them is unique.
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Old 04-06-2014, 04:45 AM
 
579 posts, read 529,045 times
Reputation: 609
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atai J. View Post
I would say: All nations are equal, but each of them is unique.
Of course all nations aren't equal otherwise there would be very little immigration.
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