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Thanks for the links to the popular left-wing mouthpieces whom have no agenda whatsoever.
Hmm. Blaming Bush for ENGLAND's issues. That's a new one. I'll put that on the list of things that are Bush's fault right behind the one that says he caused global warming and in front of he caused Hurricane Katrina.
Go to the Middle East and Africa. There's where you will see no civil liberties. Don't even compare England and the US to these countries.
Actually I was blaming Bush AND Blair in case you didn't notice.
I have been to Africa and the Middle east , quite often as it happens and you are absolutely right , they have no civil liberties at all for the most part. Something which none of us should be emulating and yet we are slowly going down the slope of eradicating crucial human rights under the pretext of a war on terror. War on terror my foot.
Exactly why I think it is pretty important to preserve the precious civil liberties we have here in Europe and the US.
2 wrongs don't make a right. Might sound trite to you but it 's true. If you think a few civil rights erosions are nothing to worry about then that's your problem.
As far as I am concerned this is a crucial issue and one which anyone with a modicum of integrity should question regardless of their political orientation.
Those human rights you are so casual about happen to be the firm foundation for a democratic and fair Nation not tiny little bits of luxury we can all do without. I suspect most neo-cons would not be too thrilled about tighter gun control but heck imprisoning innocent people for years without a shred of evidence is fine and dandy. Well as long as you're not that person of course, or your loved ones....
It seems neo-cons have more in common with the regimes they so decry than I thought. Their attitude to human rights is almost as deplorable. They use terror as a means to control the population using hysteria and fear as a very potent weapon to justify their actions.
As for quoting Liberal mouthpieces what can I say , I am a liberal ,better burn me at the stake for that one...
Oh and I don't believe in God either, nor do I think Gays people are Satan's spawn, and yes I believe in universal healthcare. Shoot me now. Quadruple whammy of evil thoughts on my part....
I am hardly going to get the truth from neo-cons mouthpieces considering they are backing all the breaches in civil liberties put into place since the bloody war on terror. If you expect me to believe what comes out of Dubya's lying mouth ( and all his cronies) then guess again.
Actually I was blaming Bush AND Blair in case you didn't notice.
I have been to Africa and the Middle east , quite often as it happens and you are absolutely right , they have no civil liberties at all for the most part. Something which none of us should be emulating and yet we are slowly going down the slope of eradicating crucial human rights under the pretext of a war on terror. War on terror my foot.
What crucial civil liberties are being "eradicated"?
Exactly why I think it is pretty important to preserve the precious civil liberties we have here in Europe and the US.
2 wrongs don't make a right. Might sound trite to you but it 's true. If you think a few civil rights erosions are nothing to worry about then that's your problem.
I agree for the most part, but my civil rights have not been eroded. Not sure what you're talking about.
As far as I am concerned this is a crucial issue and one which anyone with a modicum of integrity should question regardless of their political orientation.
Agreed, however, those that constantly rail about their "civil rights" being eroded will be the first to b.itch about how the government failed to protect them when the next attack occurs. You see, we would be foolish to think that there aren't any people here already that are ready, willing, and able to do more damage. Many of these people are pretty bold and use our laws against us like "freedom of speech", "freedom of expression", blah blah. Let me ask you; would you be offended if these people's "rights" were eroded?
Those human rights you are so casual about happen to be the firm foundation for a democratic and fair Nation not tiny little bits of luxury we can all do without. I suspect most neo-cons would not be too thrilled about tighter gun control but heck imprisoning innocent people for years without a shred of evidence is fine and dandy. Well as long as you're not that person of course, or your loved ones....
Right, so we shouldn't go after ANYONE just because we risk putting an innocent civilian in jail, something that happens less than 1% of the time. I guess we can just rid the world of our police forces right now for fear of false imprisonment.
It seems neo-cons have more in common with the regimes they so decry than I thought. Their attitude to human rights is almost as deplorable. They use terror as a means to control the population using hysteria and fear as a very potent weapon to justify their actions.
You make it sound like we have a bunch of camps with barbed wire in each city and have our police ask citizens for their papers. Typical left-wing overreaction. How are they "controlling" the population?
As for quoting Liberal mouthpieces what can I say , I am a liberal ,better burn me at the stake for that one...
Oh and I don't believe in God either, nor do I think Gays people are Satan's spawn, and yes I believe in universal healthcare. Shoot me now. Quadruple whammy of evil thoughts on my part....
I don't mind that you are liberal as I believe people should have a mixture of both liberal and conservative values. You don't believe in God, that's your business. I don't think Gay's are Satan's spawn either and find them to be very friendly and deserving of marriage and should have the right to adopt. Your universal healthcare belief is your business as well, but I worked in healthcare finance and universal healthcare won't work.
I am hardly going to get the truth from neo-cons mouthpieces considering they are backing all the breaches in civil liberties put into place since the bloody war on terror. If you expect me to believe what comes out of Dubya's lying mouth ( and all his cronies) then guess again.
I don't expect you to believe what comes out of Dubya's mouth, but if he held a press conference tomorrow saying he caused 9/11 or that he chose to invade Iraq strictly for oil and money, I would bet you would believe him then, right?
PREFACE: I'm not slinging insults and vitriol here, just thought fodder.
One thing I cant understand in these threads is the use of the term "Breach of Civil Liberties"...
Starting an unpopular war...wiretapping w/o warrants...capitalism in general - breach of civil liberties.
Taking away the rights and responsibilities to choose your own healthcare, means of retirement, and how you raise your children...all by *socializing* those programs - not breach of civil liberties??....wait...?!
My observation is that a "have your cake and eat it too" attitude is pretty prevalent here.
Nobody wants their "civil liberties" breached..but these civil liberties are rarely looked at as personal responsibilities...just things we get mad about if the government starts meddling in them...But, isn't taking care of yourself and your family, without the government regulating all of the details, and forcing you to subsidize programs to take those responsibilities away from others a breach of the fundamental rights of man??
I think we need to remember that freedom/Civil liberties and responsibility go hand in hand...and we shouldnt pick and choose which ones are the most "convenient" to give up, just because it might make some of our lives easier.
PREFACE: I'm not slinging insults and vitriol here, just thought fodder.
One thing I cant understand in these threads is the use of the term "Breach of Civil Liberties"...
Starting an unpopular war...wiretapping w/o warrants...capitalism in general - breach of civil liberties.
Taking away the rights and responsibilities to choose your own healthcare, means of retirement, and how you raise your children...all by *socializing* those programs - not breach of civil liberties??....wait...?!
My observation is that a "have your cake and eat it too" attitude is pretty prevalent here.
Nobody wants their "civil liberties" breached..but these civil liberties are rarely looked at as personal responsibilities...just things we get mad about if the government starts meddling in them...But, isn't taking care of yourself and your family, without the government regulating all of the details, and forcing you to subsidize programs to take those responsibilities away from others a breach of the fundamental rights of man??
I think we need to remember that freedom/Civil liberties and responsibility go hand in hand...and we shouldnt pick and choose which ones are the most "convenient" to give up, just because it might make some of our lives easier.
To me and hundreds of millions of people around the world socialised healthcare is a basic human RIGHT as is knowing that should any of us fall on hard times we will not be abandoned to die or live in abject poverty.
Pure and simple.
But I do realise some Americans ( a lot of them) disagree and know the opposing point of view ,so I know that neither sides of this argument can even remotely comprehent the other. This forum has proven this to me over and over again. Americans seem the only people who feel that way in the Western world and you are perfectly entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.
So any discussion on the subject seems completely and utterly futile.
I get it Socialised medicine is evil and proof that nasty government takes YOUR money to help other people . Evil, evil evil. Taxes bad. Guantanamo good.
I for one ( and I am not alone) believe as a society we need to look after vulnerable and deprived people. Even some animals look after their own.
Getting rid of "Habeas Corpus", condoning torture and the right to detain ANY citizen with no evidence whatsoever ( the corner stone of any justice system) is to me abhorrent and yes a far , far worse breach of my civil liberites than my taxes going to healthcare.
I don't expect you to believe what comes out of Dubya's mouth, but if he held a press conference tomorrow saying he caused 9/11 or that he chose to invade Iraq strictly for oil and money, I would bet you would believe him then, right?
Actually no I wouldn't believe he was responsible for the 11th of September atrocities. Mind you I would wonder why he would admit to it.
As for going to war for profit yes actually. As they say" isn't it amazing our oil is always under their land!"
There never were any WMDs and he and the rest of the Western World's politicians knew that perfectly well. The so called war on Terror was started on a lie, and has now managed to fanaticize Iraqi people who until then had no problems with us.
And made the UK if nothing else a real target for terrorism. Bush has actually made the situation about 500 times worse by radicalising Muslims . Good one and a great success. July 7th in London was IMO ( and millions of UK people) a direct result of Blair's poodling ways cozying up to your great leader and I and most English people hold him responsible in part for this tragedy and making our country a prefect target. So Thanks to your President the World has never been less safe.
Funny how every one has forgotten about Afghanistan and Bin Laden... Or the fact that most bombers on Sept 11th were Saudis. Why didn't we invade Saudi Arabia ? Hum... Because they're our allies and friends of the President and his family ? Saudi Arabia isn't exactly the greatest democratic country in the world and commits appalling acts, human rights are zero in that country so how come we didn't bring Democracy to them ? Only Iraqis deserve Freedom and Democracy ? How about the oppressed Saudi People ?
I'm sure I can come up with many, many more un-democratic places in the world with tyrants and monsters at the helm. Will Bush be invading those too ?
So apologies if the idea of President going to war with good intentions doesn't seem so believable. Sorry but I am not that gullible.
Saddam was a monster and a tyrannical dictator and a murderer. Nobody ever denied that. But he was NEVER any threat to us, he was quite happy just murdering his own people and never had any ideas above his station to conquer the world or destroy the US.
Invading a country is hardly the best way to bring democracy and Freedom to them. That should be obvious to a 4 year old. Strangely enough bombing their country back to the stone age and causing hundreds of thousands of death has not made Iraqis love us and look up to us but hate us. Gee , I wonder why. Imagine if Russia had done the same thing to America, killing your loved ones, destroying everything you had, wouldn't you want to wipe them of the face of the earth ?
The problem is the Us thought that invading Iraq and taking over would be a walk-over and quick. The same mistake Russia made with Afghanistan.
When I was in Iraq years ago, I was surprised how secular a Muslim country it was ( something which should be a good thing to the West considering how scared we are of Muslims), now the Immams and Mullahs are gaining control because of the hatred we have engendered. We have actually managed to recruit nutters and murderers for the fundamentalists and terrorists.
So excuse my tiny liberal brain for thinking this was not the brightest move to invade. A whole generation of Iraqis who now see us as their enemies. Great victory and success there.
I get it Socialised medicine is evil and proof that nasty government takes YOUR money to help other people . Evil, evil evil. Taxes bad. Guantanamo good.
I for one ( and I am not alone) believe as a society we need to look after vulnerable and deprived people. Even some animals look after their own.
Getting rid of "Habeas Corpus", condoning torture and the right to detain ANY citizen with no evidence whatsoever ( the corner stone of any justice system) is to me abhorrent and yes a far , far worse breach of my civil liberites than my taxes going to healthcare.
That must make me a monster I guess.
I believe you may have misunderstood my point. I don't think I condoned Guantanamo bay....or the abolishment of all social welfare systems.
I believe you may have misunderstood my point. I don't think I condoned Guantanamo bay....or the abolishment of all social welfare systems.
Then apologies , Mea Culpa. It sounded as though you were comparing having to subsidise welfare through taxes to breaches in civil liberties which the war on terror has brought. To me welfare is a fundamental part of a civilised society .
Sorry. I do get carried away on this issue as it is very dear to me.
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