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View Poll Results: Which cities do you prefer & seem more interesting?
Canadian cities 54 48.21%
Nordic cities 58 51.79%
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Old 05-17-2015, 09:54 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Western Massachusetts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete View Post
Those maps consists the cities of Helsinki, Espoo, Vantaa and Kauniainen = the Capital Region. All four are independent entities with their own administrations, city planning, tax rates, social services, and the rest of the 600 legal obligations, every pulling their own strings. Helsinki has no say in Espoo's things, Espoo is an independent city, and the second largest in Finland. We don't have any "metropolitan administration", except for public transport and utilities. It's like putting the cities of New York, Boston, Dallas and Chicago side by side, and everyone would do, develop and manage their own things, arguing about everything else.

Helsinki is only responsible for itself, which is 1/4 of the area in those maps.
Yes, I realized it includes outside Helsinki. The Vancouver map did as well. I'm not sure why the fact they're independent entities matters. American metros usually don't have any common administration, though Vancouver has a bit. Espoo is 22 km from Boston. It wouldn't be like putting a map of Boston and its suburbs, or Greater Boston, plenty of urban parts aren't within Boston proper anyway. If you googled "Boston density map" you get more maps of a region than just the city itself.

Density | Bostonography
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Old 05-18-2015, 10:53 AM
 
Location: Finland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Yes, I realized it includes outside Helsinki. The Vancouver map did as well. I'm not sure why the fact they're independent entities matters. American metros usually don't have any common administration, though Vancouver has a bit. Espoo is 22 km from Boston. It wouldn't be like putting a map of Boston and its suburbs, or Greater Boston, plenty of urban parts aren't within Boston proper anyway. If you googled "Boston density map" you get more maps of a region than just the city itself.
Of course it matters. The four cities don't develop the Capital Region together, but each by themselves, and as they all compete with each others for tax payers, there's no interest of developing the region as a common urban entity.

I don't get that Boston point.

My point was: teleport all those American cities side by side, all competing with each other, and look at the results. I think it would be ugly.
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Old 05-18-2015, 11:01 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Western Massachusetts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete View Post
Of course it matters. The four cities don't develop the Capital Region together, but each by themselves, and as they all compete with each others for tax payers, there's no interest of developing the region as a common urban entity.

I don't get that Boston point.
It's regional density map, not a services map, so I don't see why it matters.

The Boston point was that even though there is almost no municipal cooperation, like Helskini, I'd expect a density map not to end at the city limits, what's so specifically special about the City of Boston? You can go two miles from the city center and be outside of Boston, go ten miles in another direction and still be in the City of Boston. Still the same urban area, just different municipalities

Quote:
My point was: teleport all those American cities side by side, all competing with each other, and look at the results. I think it would be ugly.
Except that seemed like a nonsensical analogy. They're not side by side while much of the Capital Region is all part of one urban area under a few different city governments. If you search for "Boston density" on google image map, most of the hits would be a regional map just like the Helsinki map.

Anyway, the point of the map was to do a comparison with Vancouver. The Vancouver density map covered a region, or the entire urban area [urbanization doesn't suddenly end at the city limits], so the Helsinki map was meant to comparable.
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Old 05-18-2015, 11:30 AM
 
Location: Finland
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Ok, whatever. You don't seem to understand.

Let's try this: Helsinki is the NY Knicks and Espoo the Chicago Bulls. They play against each other looking who wins, not agreeing to develop their game together. Do you understand? The cities are competitors. Always have been.

If the Capital region would be only Helsinki, annexing those other cities in 1946, the urban area would look very different and not as fragmented as it is today.
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Old 05-18-2015, 11:38 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Western Massachusetts
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Seems like you're missing the point, too

Let's try this: Helsinki is the NY Knicks and Espoo the New Jersey Nets. They play against each other looking who wins, not agreeing to develop their game together. Do you understand? The cities are competitors.

But they're in the same metro area. North Jersey is suburbs of New York City and the Greater NYC region. Economy and population spilled past the city limits many decades ago.

*Ignoring that the New Jersey Nets moved to Brooklyn a few years ago and are now the Brooklyn Nets

Quote:
If the Capital region would be only Helsinki, annexing those other cities in 1946, the urban area would look very different and not as fragmented as it is today.
My point is its one urban area, regardless of municipality.
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Old 05-18-2015, 11:43 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Western Massachusetts
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Espoo is clearly a suburb of Helsinki. Espoo had 11,370 people in 1930; Helsinki 209,800 in 1930. Most of Espoo's growth happened post-1960, while Helsinki's growth had slowed by then, presumably because it was mostly built out.
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Old 05-18-2015, 11:49 AM
 
Location: Finland
24,268 posts, read 17,643,726 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Seems like you're missing the point, too

Let's try this: Helsinki is the NY Knicks and Espoo the New Jersey Nets. They play against each other looking who wins, not agreeing to develop their game together. Do you understand? The cities are competitors.

But they're in the same metro area. North Jersey is suburbs of New York City and the Greater NYC region. Economy and population spilled past the city limits many decades ago.

*Ignoring that the New Jersey Nets moved to Brooklyn a few years ago and are now the Brooklyn Nets



My point is its one urban area, regardless of municipality.
The fact that they are in the metro area doesn't mean anything. The more (wealthy) tax payers and workplaces Espoo gets instead of Helsinki, the better for them. If the social housing and social problems goes to Helsinki, it's a further win. This is the reason why the urban area is fragmented. We did a huge mistake not consolidating these satellites into Helsinki in 1946, so that only one entity would develop the whole urban area. Espoo had 23k people in 1950, Vantaa 15k. It would've been possible then.

Therefore Helsinki City cannot be blamed for the whole urban area's make up. Apparently the muncipalities neighbouring Boston or Vancouver has had a very mutual idea and agreement how to go forward and how to develop the area as a one Metro Area, and I'm jealous for that. I don't know about North Jersey, but I don't think they think themselves as a competitor for NYC, but a city who can benefit from Manhattan if they work together.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Espoo is clearly a suburb of Helsinki. Espoo had 11,370 people in 1930; Helsinki 209,800 in 1930. Most of Espoo's growth happened post-1960, while Helsinki's growth had slowed by then, presumably because it was mostly built out.
Espoo and Vantaa are satellites. They couldn't had grown without Helsinki. But they are past that point now. They are self-supplying entities and they've become competitors instead of satellites.
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