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View Poll Results: Which does Toronto resemble most?
London 1 1.22%
Queens, NY 12 14.63%
Philadelphia 5 6.10%
Buffalo 4 4.88%
Chicago 55 67.07%
Los Angeles 1 1.22%
San Francisco 4 4.88%
Voters: 82. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-21-2014, 11:42 AM
 
Location: Toronto
15,106 posts, read 15,754,533 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzrovian View Post
Don't let facts get in the way of a Torontonian's argument.

It's true that most of Chicago's urban area consists of medium to low density suburban sprawl. It's not clear though why that suburban population should be disregarded or in what way the Chicago urban area lacks cohesion -- especially given its massive suburban rail network and high commuter numbers into the Loop.
I don't know why you guys all get your knickers in a knot... You know i'm talking about population/densities that make a city feel like a 'City'

I'm not 'disregarding' suburban/exurban populations wholesale - they are connected.. Heck Newmarket is 'connected' to Toronto as a bedroom city - many people commute back and forth via a Highway and rail and they are even 'contiguous' but It doesn't to anything for the 'size' of Toronto'

Its ok Fitz - be happy in the fact that Chicago is just sooo much bigger and feels so much bigger than Madrid as well in every possible way

Last edited by fusion2; 12-21-2014 at 11:57 AM..
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Old 12-21-2014, 02:41 PM
 
Location: In the heights
36,959 posts, read 38,958,719 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Umm I dunno what to say lol... if you can take the most urbanized parts of any of Chicago/Toronto/MSP and do an analysis by all means do so.. Please use respectable levels of density tracts though..... I think with urbanized parts of respectable density/population that actually feels like a large contiguous city and you do a comparison - Toronto and Chicago compare much more favourable than MSP.. However, if it makes you feel better - yes yes Chicago is a muuuuch larger and urban, bigger city than Madrid and Hong Kong for that matter as well...

On paper yes this is how it goes without any slice and dice........ Chicago just 'feels' better with every bit of its glorious parts...

Chicago 10 million
Hong Kong 7.5 million
Madrid 6.5 million

and well - Madrid is 'closer' to MSP than Chicago with HK somewhere in between Chicago and MSP hahaha I mean lets not let the facts of a 'Torontonian' get in the way..
Well, I just gave you the numbers of Chicago and I took the numbers for GTA from that wikipedia source. I found those numbers comparable and they seemed to point to Chicago encompassing significantly more people in the same area.

I also pointed out to other possible areas to carve out of the massive Chicago CSA to make something more comparable. Maybe it'd make things easier if you just specify a certain Toronto/GTA area you want to use and then we find the most analogous example for Chicago? I feel that Chicago is really a significantly larger city than Toronto, and so I found what I felt were comparable stats. Find the areas you feel comfortable using for Toronto in a comparison and let's find something analogous for Chicago, right?

I don't get what you're saying with Madrid and Hong Kong. Those places, too, use different metro stats than both the US and Canada. I am in agreement, and have explicitly stated so, that the CSA is really huge and so it makes sense to lop things off to something more analogous--in doing that, Chicago's metro shrinks quite a bit in area, but far less so in population when doing that comparison with Toronto stats.

If you want to go into the specifics, Hong Kong is functionally a "transnational" (though technically the same country) metropolitan area that includes at least the addition of Shenzhen (another 15 million) if not more and realistically just dwarves Chicago. Madrid's metro stats compares decently to Chicago's urban area stats, so perhaps it's in between Chicago and Toronto. MSP with its urban area census listing is a population (dated, 2010) of 2,650,890 and an area of 2,646.5 square kilometers. Given that and what was Chicago's urban area, it looks like Madrid is sort of between the two but tipping towards Chicago a bit.
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Old 12-21-2014, 05:01 PM
 
Location: Toronto
15,106 posts, read 15,754,533 times
Reputation: 5196
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Well, I just gave you the numbers of Chicago and I took the numbers for GTA from that wikipedia source. I found those numbers comparable and they seemed to point to Chicago encompassing significantly more people in the same area.

I also pointed out to other possible areas to carve out of the massive Chicago CSA to make something more comparable. Maybe it'd make things easier if you just specify a certain Toronto/GTA area you want to use and then we find the most analogous example for Chicago? I feel that Chicago is really a significantly larger city than Toronto, and so I found what I felt were comparable stats. Find the areas you feel comfortable using for Toronto in a comparison and let's find something analogous for Chicago, right?

I don't get what you're saying with Madrid and Hong Kong. Those places, too, use different metro stats than both the US and Canada. I am in agreement, and have explicitly stated so, that the CSA is really huge and so it makes sense to lop things off to something more analogous--in doing that, Chicago's metro shrinks quite a bit in area, but far less so in population when doing that comparison with Toronto stats.

If you want to go into the specifics, Hong Kong is functionally a "transnational" (though technically the same country) metropolitan area that includes at least the addition of Shenzhen (another 15 million) if not more and realistically just dwarves Chicago. Madrid's metro stats compares decently to Chicago's urban area stats, so perhaps it's in between Chicago and Toronto. MSP with its urban area census listing is a population (dated, 2010) of 2,650,890 and an area of 2,646.5 square kilometers. Given that and what was Chicago's urban area, it looks like Madrid is sort of between the two but tipping towards Chicago a bit.
I'm talking about Madrid and HK due to density (HK population and built form in particular).. That is even though they are technically smaller than Chicagoland or whatever the counties in Chicagoland you want to combine you aren't going to get the same considerable density as you would in HK or even Mad. Cities like Toronto and Chicago sprawl out quite a bit more (particularly Chicago) than Madrid.. In this way i'd say for Urbanity, ped vibrancy and Big city feel I'd actually go HK, Madrid (slightly more dense in population density than Chicago and Toronto City Proper) and then Chicago/Toronto.. Things get better for Chicago as it sprawls out in terms of Density vs Madrid and Toronto because both just sort of stop unlike Chicago that keeps going and going - but really I mean at this point is it all worth it lol - its lost its urban cohesion...and relegated to pretty low density suburban/exurban landcape that is fine for highway driving and commuter rail and sprawling loooow density residential nabe's.. You're right about HK if you combined other cities outside of HK transnationally this wouldn't even be close but speaking of just HK and Chicago on paper Chicago is larger when you use a CSA measure vs HK same thing with Madrid but doesn't tell the whole story in terms of urbanity and ped vibrancy feel.. Actually looking at HK it looks to be pretty damned contiguous with Shenzehn, Dongguan and Guangzhou to the point that cluster could have the most humanity practically anywhere on earth in such a small area. Macau isn't far either!! Its really insane lol.

I've said once, twice, three times that Chicago is the larger metro than Toronto.. I don't know how much clearer I can get with that.. Chicago's most dense counties are a bit larger than the GTA and more populous (which can't sprawl geographically due to surrounding farm/marshlands) but essentially if you take the most 'urban' parts of either Chicago and Toronto from their cores I absolutely unequivocally stand by the statement that Toronto and Chicago are closer to one another in size than MSP.. Technically, Toronto is now a larger city proper than Chicago whereas Chicago anchors a larger region than Toronto.. I have no idea why this is so controversial.. Look at Hamilton it isn't included in the GTA but is every bit contiguous with Burlington which is a part of the GTA for example so we can both start cherry picking but to what end? I've already stated Chicago is the 'larger' urbanized area in metro and regional terms and achors a larger CSA/MSA whatever you guys use lol but both Chicago and Toronto really start to taper off in density beyond an area about the size of the GTA (i'd say probably even smaller) though obviously Chicago start spreading its low density wings to far greater an area.... I mean do people really consider Joliet a part of 'Chicago' really - no more than Newmarket is a 'part' of Toronto.. So my point is to what end do we start saying hey - it looks great on paper for some cities but really are we that excited about sprawling low density nabe's that finally reach a decent city cluster or just looking at it from a strong contiguous core area with respectable levels of density...

List of North American cities by population - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think you'll see in the next statscan census of Toronto in 2016 its city proper population will continue to pull away from Chicago...

What are y'all gonna do when Toronto starts anchoring a larger region than Chicago? Man y'all are going to have a collective meltdown... You heard it here first

Last edited by fusion2; 12-21-2014 at 05:45 PM..
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Old 12-21-2014, 05:01 PM
 
Location: NYC
2,546 posts, read 3,279,990 times
Reputation: 1924
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
I don't know why you guys all get your knickers in a knot... You know i'm talking about population/densities that make a city feel like a 'City'

I'm not 'disregarding' suburban/exurban populations wholesale - they are connected.. Heck Newmarket is 'connected' to Toronto as a bedroom city - many people commute back and forth via a Highway and rail and they are even 'contiguous' but It doesn't to anything for the 'size' of Toronto'

Its ok Fitz - be happy in the fact that Chicago is just sooo much bigger and feels so much bigger than Madrid as well in every possible way
Haha ... It's all good

Ever since I joined CD I noticed that Torontonians on this site have a weird obsession with Chicago. You guys like to compare yourself to Chicago on everything -- skyline, population, urbanity. It reeks of an inferiority complex. I don't think Toronto is even on the radar for most people in Chicago.
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Old 12-21-2014, 05:58 PM
 
Location: Toronto
15,106 posts, read 15,754,533 times
Reputation: 5196
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzrovian View Post
Haha ... It's all good

Ever since I joined CD I noticed that Torontonians on this site have a weird obsession with Chicago. You guys like to compare yourself to Chicago on everything -- skyline, population, urbanity. It reeks of an inferiority complex. I don't think Toronto is even on the radar for most people in Chicago.
Ah you're being a poor sport and becoming silly.... Most people in Toronto don't care about Chicago and true vice versa.. Most people aren't obsessed with cities and having online battles about them outside 'specialized' forums like this.. On C/D its a bit different because its a niche group of people if you will who like to compare sticks for lack of a better term lol. Truly, if I told people how much time I burn on C/D forums comparing a billion different things my friends would tell me to get a life.. My partner doesn't mind so much because he says atleast i'm not fighting with him..

I think in Toronto terms - why Chicago comes up isn't an 'inferiority' complex like you guys put it - it has more to do with the two cities often being compared to one another from a Canadian/American perspective and it a'int just Canadians who start that and I think you know that well.. They just sort of compare well.. Another part of the equation is Toronto did recently become a larger city proper so that just sort of fans the flames if you will. Also both cities have big dense urban cores and both know they ain't gonna be NYC so who else is left in the Canamerican landscape L.A is untouchable as the King of decent sprawl but just goes on for an eternity and is just a 'different' type of city.. Toronto doesn't compare well to Montreal anymore because it has pulled out ahead of that city in population/national importance and even density so yeah in a niche forum the other likely comparison is the other big Great Lake city..

Anyway - y'all need to come up to T.O every few years and just look at the city itself in relation to Chicago - I think you'll agree Chicago is more and more becoming less impressive in terms of having that bigger city feel.. T.O is building and growing that much more impressively.. Certainly a decade ago when I was a younger whipper snapper - I was much more impressed by Chicago than Toronto - it just seemed so much 'bigger' - in all honesty that isn't the case anymore.. The little brother is growing up and will most likely become the bigger man. When that happens - aside from a bunch of C/D geeks most people in Chicago or Toronto won't care to be honest but in here the Chicago Mafia will be talking about how much better the architecture is and they don't give T.O a second thought anyways and the Torontonian homers will be all giddy that we are number 3 - yippie I mean what else can I possibly live more for than that - yes sarcasm please belive that...

As for the topic of inferiority complex and comparing sticks.. Umm is C/D and city vs city American or Canadian.... huh huh - right I rest my case now that we joined in we're the one's with small man syndrome - gosh the nerve...

Last edited by fusion2; 12-21-2014 at 06:15 PM..
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Old 12-21-2014, 06:23 PM
 
1,008 posts, read 2,005,735 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Ah you're being a poor sport and becoming silly.... Most people in Toronto don't care about Chicago and true vice versa.. Most people aren't obsessed with cities and having online battles about them outside 'specialized' forums like this.. On C/D its a bit different because its a niche group of people if you will who like to compare sticks for lack of a better term lol. Truly, if I told people how much time I burn on C/D forums comparing a billion different things my friends would tell me to get a life.. My partner doesn't mind so much because he says atleast i'm not fighting with him..

I think in Toronto terms - why Chicago comes up isn't an 'inferiority' complex like you guys put it - it has more to do with the two cities often being compared to one another from a Canadian/American perspective and it a'int just Canadians who start that and I think you know that well.. They just sort of compare well.. Another part of the equation is Toronto did recently become a larger city proper so that just sort of fans the flames if you will. Also both cities have big dense urban cores and both know they ain't gonna be NYC so who else is left in the Canamerican landscape L.A is untouchable as the King of decent sprawl but just goes on for an eternity and is just a 'different' type of city.. Toronto doesn't compare well to Montreal anymore because it has pulled out ahead of that city in population/national importance and even density so yeah in a niche forum the other likely comparison is the other big Great Lake city..

Anyway - y'all need to come up to T.O every few years and just look at the city itself in relation to Chicago - I think you'll agree Chicago is more and more becoming less impressive in terms of having that bigger city feel.. T.O is building and growing that much more impressively.. Certainly a decade ago when I was a younger whipper snapper - I was much more impressed by Chicago than Toronto - it just seemed so much 'bigger' - in all honesty that isn't the case anymore.. The little brother is growing up and will most likely become the bigger man. When that happens - aside from a bunch of C/D geeks most people in Chicago or Toronto won't care to be honest but in here the Chicago Mafia will be talking about how much better the architecture is and they don't give T.O a second thought anyways and the Torontonian homers will be all giddy that we are number 3 - yippie I mean what else can I possibly live more for than that - yes sarcasm please belive that...

As for the topic of inferiority complex and comparing sticks.. Umm is C/D and city vs city American or Canadian.... huh huh - right I rest my case now that we joined in we're the one's with small man syndrome - gosh the nerve...
But aren't Chicago's buildings more interesting architecture-wise? I've heard Toronto is just a concrete jungle with very bland architecture in terms of the aesthetics
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Old 12-21-2014, 06:31 PM
 
Location: Toronto
15,106 posts, read 15,754,533 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OZpharmer View Post
But aren't Chicago's buildings more interesting architecture-wise? I've heard Toronto is just a concrete jungle with very bland architecture in terms of the aesthetics
I wouldn't dismiss T.O's architecture wholesale.. There are decent examples of Libeskind, Van Der Rohe, Pei, Durrell Stone, Alsop, Calavatra, Rivell etc.. Soon there will be twin Gehry's one probably a supertall and there is a Foster supertall proposal..Toronto's latest growth this past decade is sort of a sign of the times.. First - its residential condo's for the most part and yes, many have been run of the mill and less than inspired taking place from 2004-present instead of the 20's, 30's, 40's etc .. Things are improving with every project and thankfully people are demanding bigger and better projects.. (eg ICE, AURA, 88 Scott, Massey, Holt Renfrew etc etc).

Having said all that, Chicago does have better scraper architecture.. That is for sure.. It has a much longer legacy and has more examples that people always gush over and that is the classical stuff that Toronto won't be able to touch regardless of how tall and dense it becomes.. Its the same thing with Sydney and Melbourne - they'll never match Chicago for 'quality' scraper architecture.

As for other types of architecture - T.O isn't bad at all well... Old T.O that is which is awash with residential vic's and ed's and there's quite a bit of Neo-gothic stuff too... Saying you've 'heard' that is just that 'heard' - better to actually judge it after a visit, open mind and not judging it based on small slices and white noise.

Last edited by fusion2; 12-21-2014 at 06:44 PM..
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Old 12-21-2014, 06:34 PM
 
Location: East Central Pennsylvania/ Chicago for 6yrs.
2,535 posts, read 3,262,119 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzrovian View Post
Haha ... It's all good

Ever since I joined CD I noticed that Torontonians on this site have a weird obsession with Chicago. You guys like to compare yourself to Chicago on everything -- skyline, population, urbanity. It reeks of an inferiority complex. I don't think Toronto is even on the radar for most people in Chicago.
Perhaps its the Fact Toronto expounds more a likeness to Chicago then NYC ....that ruffles some Big Apple feathers (EGOS) . I mean HOW DARE THEY LOOK TOWARD..... LOWLY CHICAGO instead of MANHATTAN ? DA NERVE ...got to be.... something peculiar indeed.... REALLY TO EXALT and GIVE ESTEEM ....CHICAGO WAY. With its Contemporary open skyline and large high-rise living downtown and Gold Coast..... .

After all.... there are other SKYLINES in the world to look toward and have a respect for..... and see in itself similarity to.... and have a likeness to? Guess the voters are lacking commonsense ....for you if they voted for Chicago....
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Old 12-21-2014, 06:37 PM
 
Location: Toronto
15,106 posts, read 15,754,533 times
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Originally Posted by steeps View Post
Perhaps its the Fact Toronto expounds more a likeness to Chicago then NYC ....that ruffles some Big Apple feathers (EGOS) . I mean HOW DARE THEY LOOK TOWARD..... LOWLY CHICAGO instead of MANHATTAN ? DA NERVE ...got to be.... something peculiar indeed.... REALLY TO EXALT and GIVE ESTEEM ....CHICAGO WAY. With its Contemporary open skyline and large high-rise living downtown and Gold Coast..... .

After all.... there are other SKYLINES in the world to look toward and have a respect for..... and see in itself similarity to.... and have a likeness to? Guess the voters are lacking commonsense ....for you if they voted for Chicago....
Ummm no - T.O just will never become as big, tall, urban or important as NYC.. Chicago on the otherhand.. Ummm yes lol

Anyway - isn't Fitz from Chicagoland???? Did I just say that.... lol...
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Old 12-21-2014, 07:57 PM
 
Location: East Central Pennsylvania/ Chicago for 6yrs.
2,535 posts, read 3,262,119 times
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Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Ummm no - T.O just will never become as big, tall, urban or important as NYC.. Chicago on the otherhand.. Ummm yes lol

Anyway - isn't Fitz from Chicagoland???? Did I just say that.... lol...
Who says ANY North American city will become as big as NYC? It is the Worlds city with London... But a attitude of Chicago winning with even Queens NYC as a choice in the list...... and a slight not Just the attitude of Chicago winning the likeness poll. But to Toronto citizens to DARE see Chicago with esteem ?



definition;
  1. Favorable regard; respect.
  2. Judgment; opinion.
God forbid if Chicago won over Manhattan or all NYC.... as a choice? No one denies NYCs renown. I merely saw the slight and attitude and gave my opinion.

Homers can be most critical of their hometowns . But when you adopt one you moved to.... then you may be the most boastful of it . Seems Fritz surely left Chicago behind if a former homer ... for NYC ....attitude can be adopted too LOL
I adopted Chicagoland, though I no longer live there...but returned to my home state. I fall into the boastful category but do not deny others cities value to boost mine.
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