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Old 11-22-2014, 03:36 PM
 
2,328 posts, read 2,902,148 times
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Sigh, there we go again. How can you compare disposable salary when Americans work 1.5 to 2 times more hours than we do? How can you compare costs of living when they count things like Big Macs which are cheap in the US but which we don't eat or when they fail to include health care/insurance or college tuition which make costs of living in the US prohibitively expensive? I wouldn't even mind discussing this if we hadn't done so already in recent months(discussions you were even part of) so I'll just leave it for now. And I explicitly said credible sources, btw. I do appreciate your sense of humor by linking to the CIA. Have a good weekend .
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Old 11-22-2014, 03:45 PM
 
Location: Finland
1,398 posts, read 1,480,086 times
Reputation: 781
Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon View Post
Disposable income listed by country:
Countries Compared by Cost of living > Average monthly disposable salary > After tax. International Statistics at NationMaster.com

Unemployment rates listed by country:
Unemployment Rate - Countries - List


That should give you enough reading (and reality) for a bit.
Just wanted to make a comment about your statistics:

In America you just need more money and in average Americans work a lot more than people here. So it is not comparable. There you need much higher income to get to the same level of comfort than people here.

Unemployment rate of your country is just a big lie. In your system you get unemployment benefits only for a certain period of time correct? So people who don't find work during this time period are not listed as unemployed anymore. Contrary to my country where you keep searching until you hit 62 and get pension/retirement granted.

As you can see here Americans are actually running out of work:


Your job situation is actually as good as it was back in 70's when many women didn't even try to find work.
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Old 11-22-2014, 04:15 PM
 
Location: Wonderland
67,652 posts, read 60,351,321 times
Reputation: 101015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majurius View Post
Just wanted to make a comment about your statistics:

In America you just need more money and in average Americans work a lot more than people here. So it is not comparable. There you need much higher income to get to the same level of comfort than people here.

Unemployment rate of your country is just a big lie. In your system you get unemployment benefits only for a certain period of time correct? So people who don't find work during this time period are not listed as unemployed anymore. Contrary to my country where you keep searching until you hit 62 and get pension/retirement granted.

As you can see here Americans are actually running out of work:


Your job situation is actually as good as it was back in 70's when many women didn't even try to find work.

The US is HUGE and has so many different regions, types of communities, demographics,etc that it is impossible to say, with any real validity, that "In America you just need more money...There you need much higher income to get to the same level of comfort than people here." Compared to what? Compared to where? Where I live in northeast Texas, I can buy a beautiful, comfortable 2500 square foot home on an acre lot for under $200k. But I couldn't do that in NYC and I couldn't do that in Frankfurt, Germany either. Much of the US enjoys a relatively low cost of living compared to other countries. And I'm not just spouting this - I did provide numerous sources (which neither you nor drro have, by the way), and not only that, I lived in Europe for years and visit there often - it's not like I haven't experienced the cultures we're discussing first hand.

And by the way, I've got a logical question for you - how can Americans be "running out of work" when according to you, we're working wayyyyyyyyy more than Europeans work, all day every day, week in and week out...and our unemployment rate is well below that of the EU?
Unemployment statistics - Statistics Explained

Best worry about your own house and quit worrying so much about ours.
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Old 11-22-2014, 04:27 PM
 
Location: San Diego, California Republic
16,572 posts, read 27,278,954 times
Reputation: 9002
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majurius View Post
Just wanted to make a comment about your statistics:

In America you just need more money and in average Americans work a lot more than people here. So it is not comparable. There you need much higher income to get to the same level of comfort than people here.

Unemployment rate of your country is just a big lie. In your system you get unemployment benefits only for a certain period of time correct? So people who don't find work during this time period are not listed as unemployed anymore. Contrary to my country where you keep searching until you hit 62 and get pension/retirement granted.

As you can see here Americans are actually running out of work:


Your job situation is actually as good as it was back in 70's when many women didn't even try to find work.
I'm going to go ahead and back you up on a couple of things. For starters, unemployment numbers in the US are a joke precisely for the reason you mentioned. At one time, unemployment didn't have a time line. That was changed in the 80's. Now, you can collect for 6 months then you're done. At the height of the recession, it was extended to two years. So, for those who's time is up, they are no longer counted just as you said so the actual numbers are significantly higher.

Secondly, there was a time in the US when one income was enough to support a family. Even a retail job back then was at least enough to support oneself independently and rent an apartment at least. The largest employer for example was General Motors who paid the equivalent of 50 dollars and hour in todays money so the bar was higher all around. Today, WalMart is the largest employer and they pay around 8 dollars an hour. This has driven wages, especially retail wages down across the board so yeah, people need two part time jobs working 60 hours a week to barely scrape by where as this same type of job could support one person decades ago.

Now, you are going to see the inevitable posts talking about "if people got a better education" blah blah blah. Two things they don't realize is, 1). the cost of college has increased at a rate 10 times the rate of wages and two, their are more people needing these types of jobs which require education than there are jobs available so even if everyone got the training and education to get better jobs, mathematically, there would still be people working in other fields, fields which are needed anyway.

So yeah, now we have more people needing jobs than there are jobs available. A few fields do have a shortage but all of them put together could never fill the employment gap. As long as people continue to passively accept it, I don't see this changing anytime soon. It's why I continuously change career fields but I am a single person with no family and not tied down to any one place so I can afford to take chances but most people can't.
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Old 11-22-2014, 04:37 PM
 
Location: Wonderland
67,652 posts, read 60,351,321 times
Reputation: 101015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gentoo View Post
I'm going to go ahead and back you up on a couple of things. For starters, unemployment numbers in the US are a joke precisely for the reason you mentioned. At one time, unemployment didn't have a time line. That was changed in the 80's. Now, you can collect for 6 months then you're done. At the height of the recession, it was extended to two years. So, for those who's time is up, they are no longer counted just as you said so the actual numbers are significantly higher.

Secondly, there was a time in the US when one income was enough to support a family. Even a retail job back then was at least enough to support oneself independently and rent an apartment at least. The largest employer for example was General Motors who paid the equivalent of 50 dollars and hour in todays money so the bar was higher all around. Today, WalMart is the largest employer and they pay around 8 dollars an hour. This has driven wages, especially retail wages down across the board so yeah, people need two part time jobs working 60 hours a week to barely scrape by where as this same type of job could support one person decades ago.
Mix of truth and fiction.

My two sons' in law support their families (three kids in one family, four in another) and their wives, who do not work outside the home, on one income. Neither of them makes an exorbitant amount of money - they are middle class but not at all wealthy - and both families have to make sacrifices for the mother to stay home.

The statistical evidence simply does not bear out your assertion that the average American works 60 hours a week to barely scrape by. Most Americans are, for that matter, NOT "barely scraping by." The percentage of Americans living below the poverty line is well below that of many western European countries (I already posted the link so I'm not going to do it again though).

Our perceptions and our "reality" is shaped by our own experiences, though, as well as our own opinions and yes, our own prejudices. That's true for everyone - even me. And yes, you too.
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Old 11-22-2014, 04:37 PM
 
Location: Finland
1,398 posts, read 1,480,086 times
Reputation: 781
Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon View Post
The US is HUGE and has so many different regions, types of communities, demographics,etc that it is impossible to say, with any real validity, that "In America you just need more money...There you need much higher income to get to the same level of comfort than people here." Compared to what? Compared to where? Where I live in northeast Texas, I can buy a beautiful, comfortable 2500 square foot home on an acre lot for under $200k. But I couldn't do that in NYC and I couldn't do that in Frankfurt, Germany either. Much of the US enjoys a relatively low cost of living compared to other countries. And I'm not just spouting this - I did provide numerous sources (which neither you nor drro have, by the way), and not only that, I lived in Europe for years and visit there often - it's not like I haven't experienced the cultures we're discussing first hand.

And by the way, I've got a logical question for you - how can Americans be "running out of work" when according to you, we're working wayyyyyyyyy more than Europeans work, all day every day, week in and week out...and our unemployment rate is well below that of the EU?
Unemployment statistics - Statistics Explained

Best worry about your own house and quit worrying so much about ours.
Your northeast Texas 200k$ house wouldn't pass any inspection in Europe. Houses are much more advanced here because of the stricter regulation.

Few people do most of your work. Unemployment rate doesn't mean anything if more and more people are sliding out of the workforce. You have so many people willing to work but unable to find anything who are not counted in that statistic.
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Old 11-22-2014, 04:39 PM
 
Location: Finland
1,398 posts, read 1,480,086 times
Reputation: 781
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gentoo View Post
I'm going to go ahead and back you up on a couple of things. For starters, unemployment numbers in the US are a joke precisely for the reason you mentioned. At one time, unemployment didn't have a time line. That was changed in the 80's. Now, you can collect for 6 months then you're done. At the height of the recession, it was extended to two years. So, for those who's time is up, they are no longer counted just as you said so the actual numbers are significantly higher.

Secondly, there was a time in the US when one income was enough to support a family. Even a retail job back then was at least enough to support oneself independently and rent an apartment at least. The largest employer for example was General Motors who paid the equivalent of 50 dollars and hour in todays money so the bar was higher all around. Today, WalMart is the largest employer and they pay around 8 dollars an hour. This has driven wages, especially retail wages down across the board so yeah, people need two part time jobs working 60 hours a week to barely scrape by where as this same type of job could support one person decades ago.

Now, you are going to see the inevitable posts talking about "if people got a better education" blah blah blah. Two things they don't realize is, 1). the cost of college has increased at a rate 10 times the rate of wages and two, their are more people needing these types of jobs which require education than there are jobs available so even if everyone got the training and education to get better jobs, mathematically, there would still be people working in other fields, fields which are needed anyway.

So yeah, now we have more people needing jobs than there are jobs available. A few fields do have a shortage but all of them put together could never fill the employment gap. As long as people continue to passively accept it, I don't see this changing anytime soon. It's why I continuously change career fields but I am a single person with no family and not tied down to any one place so I can afford to take chances but most people can't.
Thank you This is exactly how it is by my information.
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Old 11-22-2014, 04:43 PM
 
Location: Wonderland
67,652 posts, read 60,351,321 times
Reputation: 101015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majurius View Post
Your northeast Texas 200k$ house wouldn't pass any inspection in Europe. Houses are much more advanced here because of the stricter regulation.
I am not going to get into the housing argument with you. Personally, I've lived in European housing and I've lived in American housing and found both to be comfortable, and safe, and pleasant.

I do love my spacious, comfortable, well built home though. And I'm hoping you love your home too.
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Old 11-22-2014, 04:43 PM
 
Location: Finland
1,398 posts, read 1,480,086 times
Reputation: 781
Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon View Post
Mix of truth and fiction.

My two sons' in law support their families (three kids in one family, four in another) and their wives, who do not work outside the home, on one income. Neither of them makes an exorbitant amount of money - they are middle class but not at all wealthy - and both families have to make sacrifices for the mother to stay home.

The statistical evidence simply does not bear out your assertion that the average American works 60 hours a week to barely scrape by. Most Americans are, for that matter, NOT "barely scraping by." The percentage of Americans living below the poverty line is well below that of many western European countries (I already posted the link so I'm not going to do it again though).

Our perceptions and our "reality" is shaped by our own experiences, though, as well as our own opinions and yes, our own prejudices. That's true for everyone - even me. And yes, you too.
You can't compare them.

Quote:
In 2009 the number of people who were in poverty was approaching 1960s levels that led to the national War on Poverty.[11] In 2011 extreme poverty in the United States, meaning households living on less than $2 per day before government benefits, was double 1996 levels at 1.5 million households, including 2.8 million children.[12] This would be roughly 1.2% of the US population in 2011, presuming a mean household size of 2.55 people. Census data for 2011 showed that half the population qualified as low income.[13]

In 2011, child poverty reached record high levels, with 16.7 million children living in food insecure households, about 35% more than 2007 levels.[14] A 2013 UNICEF report ranked the U.S. as having the second highest relative child poverty rates in the developed world.[15]
No one is this poor in Finland.
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Old 11-22-2014, 04:45 PM
 
Location: Finland
1,398 posts, read 1,480,086 times
Reputation: 781
Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon View Post
I am not going to get into the housing argument with you. Personally, I've lived in European housing and I've lived in American housing and found both to be comfortable, and safe, and pleasant.

I do love my spacious, comfortable, well built home though. And I'm hoping you love your home too.
I like my home. But to build a house that big in Europe would be much much more expensive.

From Wikipedia:
Quote:
In the US and Canada, many new houses are built in housing tracts, which provide homeowners a sense of "belonging" and the feeling they have "made the best use" of their money. However, these houses are sometimes built as cheaply and quickly as possible by large builders seeking to maximize profits. Many environmental health issues may be ignored or minimized in the construction of these structures. In one case in Benicia, California, a housing tract was built over an old landfill. Home buyers were never told, and only found out when some began having reactions to high levels of lead and chromium.[19]
Btw do you have single family houses built of stone in America? Here wooden houses are the cheaper ones.
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