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From the parent/mother point of view, cost of daycare in NY is really high. Around $2000/per month for a child. You have to go back to work after only 3 months. In Europe, it differ from country to country, but in some countries you can stay home with your baby for the whole year and get payed for it. Talk about quality of life.
I am not sure why US had so terrible parental leave policies. Norway has 40 weeks with full pay (or 56 weeks with 80% pay) and Norway spends 1.6% of its budget on parental leave. US could easily give 80% pay for a half year without it costing too much and it would have been a massive benefit for American families.
Regarding cost of daycare, then it is really expensive in New York, but other places it is more acceptable.
^^^There are alternatives like co-op daycare that work well for those working part time...
US has family leave and maternity leave and maternity leave can be extended for medical necessity...
Most those I know find a way to make it work...
A very good friend lost his job in the economic crisis... was off for more than 2 years receiving about $1800 a month unemployment... he got married and 9 months later they had a baby girl... he was home with the baby for 15 months on unemployment...
When the economy got better, his former boss called and asked him to come back to work... he said everything could not have worked out better.
From the parent/mother point of view, cost of daycare in NY is really high. Around $2000/per month for a child. You have to go back to work after only 3 months. In Europe, it differ from country to country, but in some countries you can stay home with your baby for the whole year and get payed for it. Talk about quality of life.
The employers don't necessarily view it as positively. Especially small businesses, in fact, some try to avoid hiring "certain people" in order to not mess their finances over that.
I rather don't have to wonder about a million insurances and college funds, and take home a bit less. Agree with the rest, though.
I know, sometimes the wages and bennies offered in certain US professions and companies just look very tempting, especially when they are not located in the heart of some expensive metro. Even Detroit, i wouldn't mind having to drive a little from some nice and affordable Oakland County suburb at all.
Have to clarify that i don't consider the Bay Area to be cheap, just that it's not really that expensive when you factor the economy in. I'm sure some working class people are struggling to maintain, not that it doesn't happen in Helsinki as well. The person making 10e/hr in Helsinki (and there's a whole lot of them) still probably has overall better health insurance than a peer in SF, the rest is up to debate.
Helsinki has very good public transportation for a city it's size, but you know something is wrong with their housing market when people commute there to work everyday not only from the edges of the surrounding metro, but from places such as Lahti (105 km), Turku (165 km), Tampere (180 km) in trainloads and trainloads and large lines of cars. I would understand this in LA or New York, not a rather small city.
I know, sometimes the wages and bennies offered in certain US professions and companies just look very tempting, especially when they are not located in the heart of some expensive metro. Even Detroit, i wouldn't mind having to drive a little from some nice and affordable Oakland County suburb at all.
Have to clarify that i don't consider the Bay Area to be cheap, just that it's not really that expensive when you factor the economy in. I'm sure some working class people are struggling to maintain, not that it doesn't happen in Helsinki as well. The person making 10e/hr in Helsinki (and there's a whole lot of them) still probably has overall better health insurance than a peer in SF, the rest is up to debate.
Helsinki has very good public transportation for a city it's size, but you know something is wrong with their housing market when people commute there to work everyday not only from the edges of the surrounding metro, but from places such as Lahti (105 km), Turku (165 km), Tampere (180 km) in trainloads and trainloads and large lines of cars. I would understand this in LA or New York, not a rather small city.
Met a young lady all of 18... she always told her parents she was going to move to San Francisco when she graduated High School and she did... her parents could not afford to help her with a house full of younger brothers and sisters.
Anyway, what impressed me is she had landed a job the second day here waiting tables and made good money with tips... her only CA connection was a older sister of a girl she knew back home that put her up on a couch for a couple of weeks...
She got another job waiting tables in Berkeley and enrolled in college... and she was not even 19 and made her own way... last I heard she is working for a International Company and travels a lot... all of 24...
I know, sometimes the wages and bennies offered in certain US professions and companies just look very tempting, especially when they are not located in the heart of some expensive metro. Even Detroit, i wouldn't mind having to drive a little from some nice and affordable Oakland County suburb at all.
Have to clarify that i don't consider the Bay Area to be cheap, just that it's not really that expensive when you factor the economy in. I'm sure some working class people are struggling to maintain, not that it doesn't happen in Helsinki as well. The person making 10e/hr in Helsinki (and there's a whole lot of them) still probably has overall better health insurance than a peer in SF, the rest is up to debate.
Helsinki has very good public transportation for a city it's size, but you know something is wrong with their housing market when people commute there to work everyday not only from the edges of the surrounding metro, but from places such as Lahti (105 km), Turku (165 km), Tampere (180 km) in trainloads and trainloads and large lines of cars. I would understand this in LA or New York, not a rather small city.
10e/hr? There's not a lot of them. That's €1600 a month, which is only a bit over the poverty line, you're exaggerating here. Helsinki has the highest wages in the country and overwhelmingly the largest GDP production. And if you really make only 1600 a month, you're eligble for rent subsidies and other, something that doesn't exist in the Bay Area.
Helsinki's housing policies are not the subject of this thread, though I could argue about them until Kingdom come. All I'm saying that Helsinki has gone from zero growth to almost 10k new inhabitants every year, and the city's a large ship to turn around. Look at Jätkäsaari or Kalasatama. It's zoned and ready to go, but due to the current state of the economy, you can't find enough contractors and construction is slow.
Of course compared to the Bay Area Helsinki is a village, but on an European scale it's not. Helsinki with its 622 000 inhabitants would be the 3rd largest commune in France. The Capital Region is roughly the same size as Marseille urban area.
BTW, the Z train from Lahti takes an hour, IC 50 minutes. It's not a long commuting time if you compare to some village in Nurmijärvi.
Getting back to the original title of the thread - Let us leave aside for a moment the city to city comparison ( or city to village )
Europe is cheap compared to USA - Depends primarily on what you make in USA. If you make an income over $250K or have an accumulated / inherited wealth, then USA is the place for you. I have not seen high wage earner in USA yearning to relocate to Europe and wanting to pay more in taxes, with an occasional exception to the rule.
If you are poor or borderline poor, the social benefits of Western Europe start to become attractive.
It is in the middle class that there is some controversy. They wish for the health, maternity and other benefits of Europe since they will be getting more in benefits than what they pay more in taxes. The upper middle class earners might benefit living in Europe but might at the same time do better in USA.
But a lot of posters have not lived on the other side of the pond, and make comparisons with rose tinted glasses. Once one actually lives on the other side and experiences the working conditions and associated benefits can one make a true comparison.
Europe just looks more attractive to people on the
lower end of the economic totem pole because Europe
has much better social programs to provide money to
the poor than America does in my opinion.
You aren't as likely to fall through the cracks and
live a hard life due to your own stupid decisions in
Europe for this reason.
Last edited by Europeanflava; 01-21-2015 at 02:27 PM..
Can we all just agree (even if we don't) with these people that Europe is cheap? these people sure are very passionate and outspoken about how they want others to view Europe... for whatever reason
Getting back to the original title of the thread - Let us leave aside for a moment the city to city comparison ( or city to village )
Europe is cheap compared to USA - Depends primarily on what you make in USA. If you make an income over $250K or have an accumulated / inherited wealth, then USA is the place for you. I have not seen high wage earner in USA yearning to relocate to Europe and wanting to pay more in taxes, with an occasional exception to the rule.
If you are poor or borderline poor, the social benefits of Western Europe start to become attractive.
It is in the middle class that there is some controversy. They wish for the health, maternity and other benefits of Europe since they will be getting more in benefits than what they pay more in taxes. The upper middle class earners might benefit living in Europe but might at the same time do better in USA.
But a lot of posters have not lived on the other side of the pond, and make comparisons with rose tinted glasses. Once one actually lives on the other side and experiences the working conditions and associated benefits can one make a true comparison.
I would tend to agree with you. Maybe even put the threshold at $300K but yeah, that's exactly the point. Even at NYC, life is alright after that threshold.
I did experience both sides of the Atlantic (Paris, Frankfurt area and NYC) but I avoid making comparisons because... it doesn't help much.
But the point is:
- For a similar job in my expertise in the same American company, I was making less in Europe
- However with my pay now, it would not be more attractive to live in Europe as I would pay more in taxes overall, even with high NYS/NYC income taxes
- For children (I am married with no kids so far), it would be worth exploring going back to Europe as the quality of education is less correlated to the money, though times are changing
The best trade-off is to go back to Europe for vacation. Plus, the dollar is stronger now compared to when I came so it's good .
Last edited by Gasolin; 01-21-2015 at 04:20 PM..
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