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Old 08-30-2016, 05:02 PM
 
Location: South Wales, United Kingdom
4,237 posts, read 2,023,591 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ottawa2011 View Post
There are some very swarthy (dark complected) Celts. The so-called "black Irish"... also some Welsh are very dark (think of Catherine Zeta-Jones), and also the Celts in Brittany in France, and the Basques in Spain. I would imagine that's where Clooney gets his darker complexion... there must be a South European or North African connection to the dark Celts going back centuries to explain it.
This is more particular to South Wales, rather than North Wales (where people can be fairer).
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Old 08-30-2016, 06:22 PM
 
3,431 posts, read 2,570,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saxonwold View Post
Clooney is no North African!!! As far we know, he has English, Irish, German with distant Northern Irish, Scottish, Welsh, French and Dutch ancestries. Some Welsh may be dark, but so are some Germans too like Jonas Kaupfmann who is darker than Clooney. French people are dark too. Catherine Zeta Jones has dark hair and dark eyes, but she is definitely not as dark as Clooney. She fake tans a lot, her natural skin colour is fair. Although most ethnic Northern Europeans groups are in the vast majority fair-skinned , the Irish, English, Scottish, Welsh, Dutch and so on. There are also darker-skinned minorities within those respective populations. Let's stop with the " dark" Celts jokes, some of the lightest-skinned people on the face of the earth are Kelts.
I didn't say Clooney was from North Africa. He obviously had some ancestors who weren't from Finland, though. If you go back far enough, every human being descends from ancestors in Africa anyway. Newer genetic anomalies like blond hair and blue eyes are relatively late in the human family tree. The rest have darker colouring in keeping with a diverse ancestry further back in the human family tree. Richard Burton, Tom Jones, Stephen Mangan, Ioan Gruffald, Jennifer Connelly, Peter Gallagher, or many Picts, for a few examples. And of course, there are dark Germans as well. First one that comes to mind would've been Beethoven... and yes, there are pale Celts galore. They're really aberrations, and "the black Irish" and other dark Celts aren't a "joke", they're simply a fact.
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Old 08-30-2016, 07:42 PM
 
2,547 posts, read 3,577,716 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ottawa2011 View Post
I didn't say Clooney was from North Africa. He obviously had some ancestors who weren't from Finland, though. If you go back far enough, every human being descends from ancestors in Africa anyway. Newer genetic anomalies like blond hair and blue eyes are relatively late in the human family tree. The rest have darker colouring in keeping with a diverse ancestry further back in the human family tree. Richard Burton, Tom Jones, Stephen Mangan, Ioan Gruffald, Jennifer Connelly, Peter Gallagher, or many Picts, for a few examples. And of course, there are dark Germans as well. First one that comes to mind would've been Beethoven... and yes, there are pale Celts galore. They're really aberrations, and "the black Irish" and other dark Celts aren't a "joke", they're simply a fact.
There is nothing mysterious about people having dark hair and eyes. They are in every population. My main beef is the term "the Black Irish". That is not used in Ireland and I'm not exactly sure of why the term came about in the US. Someone with dark hair and eyes can have a sibling with blond hair and blue eyes. That sort of thing is very common. Every population has this variety of colouring. It is not unique to any population so why is there a special term for Irish people with dark hair?


There is nothing to suggest that people with dark hair have a different ancestry than someone with blond or red hair. One family can have all this colouring. What is obvious is that people from the same country have the same genetics and will all cluster together on a genetic plot. A dark haired Irishman will cluster with a red haired Irishman or a dark haired Italian will cluster with a blond haired Italian. One does not have different genetics than the other.
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Old 08-31-2016, 09:43 PM
 
Location: Sydney, Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saxonwold View Post
Clooney is not really representative of an "average" Irish person, as Bernie has pointed out. The average ethnic Irish person has a fair skin, brown hair and blue eyes. Approximately 76% of the Irish people have a skin phototype I/II. The ethnic Britons are not far behind either.
No, I agree. Celtic people generally look exactly like the way you describe them - Fair skin, light hair and blue eyes (Nicole Kidman, Cate Blanchett, Liam Hemsworth, Russel Crowe, etc).

With that being said, I do see many fair skinned Irish folks with black hair and brown eyes (i.e. Aidan Turner and Colin Farrell). At the end of the day, they still tend to have white skin, despite a few "dark features". Clooney is dark all round and he looks Middle Eastern or Sicilian.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ottawa2011 View Post
There are some very swarthy (dark complected) Celts. The so-called "black Irish"... also some Welsh are very dark (think of Catherine Zeta-Jones), and also the Celts in Brittany in France, and the Basques in Spain. I would imagine that's where Clooney gets his darker complexion... there must be a South European or North African connection to the dark Celts going back centuries to explain it.
Sure, there are some Celts who are a bit dark, but the term "black Irish" is an exaggeration for them. It shouldn't be used nowadays. Just because you have a bit of olive skin doesn't mean that you should be referred to as "black". Think of it this way, if Catherine Zeta Jones and Tom Jones are "black Irish", then what the hell would you call Irish citizens of subsaharan descent, or those who are mixed? "Night sky black"? Haha...
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Old 08-31-2016, 10:05 PM
 
Location: Sydney, Australia
9,989 posts, read 6,520,163 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saxonwold View Post
Clooney is no North African!!! As far we know, he has English, Irish, German with distant Northern Irish, Scottish, Welsh, French and Dutch ancestries. Some Welsh may be dark, but so are some Germans too like Jonas Kaupfmann who is darker than Clooney.
Hm, I'd say that Clooney's skin is darker than his. And whilst Clooney is "darker" (could be the tan), Kaufmann still appears more "ethnic looking" with his large eyes, prominent nose/lips and curly hair. An ethnic German barely looks like that. Not to mention, Clooney doesn't have exotically big lips, hooked nose and curly hair. Only his colouring is "exotic".

Kaufmann looks North African (Moroccan, Tunisian) or at least Turkish to me. I wouldn't be surprised if he had North African or Turkish ancestry. After all, Germany does have a lot people belonging to these ethnic groups. And since Germany is a white country by default, it won't be surprising if foreigners "Germanize" their names and claim German ancestry.

Kaufmann: https://static01.nyt.com/images/2014...ByNine1050.jpg (very Semitic eyes, lips and nose shape)
Clooney: http://www.jpost.com/HttpHandlers/Sh...ashx?ID=327600 (face shape looks European, but skin is dark)

P.S. Yes, we know that these are Clooney's ethnic make ups. But sometimes, people don't always tell their "full" ethnic make up, or at least, they just wouldn't know. Now Clooney may not have North African heritage, but Southern European or the Caucasus should still be on the table.
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Old 09-01-2016, 06:16 AM
 
2,547 posts, read 3,577,716 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
No, I agree. Celtic people generally look exactly like the way you describe them - Fair skin, light hair and blue eyes (Nicole Kidman, Cate Blanchett, Liam Hemsworth, Russel Crowe, etc).

With that being said, I do see many fair skinned Irish folks with black hair and brown eyes (i.e. Aidan Turner and Colin Farrell). At the end of the day, they still tend to have white skin, despite a few "dark features". Clooney is dark all round and he looks Middle Eastern or Sicilian.


Sure, there are some Celts who are a bit dark, but the term "black Irish" is an exaggeration for them. It shouldn't be used nowadays. Just because you have a bit of olive skin doesn't mean that you should be referred to as "black". Think of it this way, if Catherine Zeta Jones and Tom Jones are "black Irish", then what the hell would you call Irish citizens of subsaharan descent, or those who are mixed? "Night sky black"? Haha...
I've got a theory about Black Irish. I think it was used in the US for people that possibly had some African of Native American similar to how Black Dutch was used. I've always been perplexed why this American term was used for Irish people. In Ireland no one would be singled out for having dark hair or dark eyes. Why would they? The whole thing only makes sense to me in the context of the US with the one drop rule. I don't understand why it would be used otherwise. All European populations have people with dark hair so why was there a special term for Irish people with dark hair? Dark hair is one thing but not many Irish have olive skin. It is really very uncommon. Would someone like Enya be called "Black Irish" is the US?

There is real Black Irish and the most famous one would be Phil Lynott, the late great frontman from Thin Lizzy who sadly passed away much too young.

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Old 09-01-2016, 06:55 PM
 
Location: Sydney, Australia
9,989 posts, read 6,520,163 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie20 View Post
I've got a theory about Black Irish. I think it was used in the US for people that possibly had some African of Native American similar to how Black Dutch was used. I've always been perplexed why this American term was used for Irish people. In Ireland no one would be singled out for having dark hair or dark eyes. Why would they? The whole thing only makes sense to me in the context of the US with the one drop rule. I don't understand why it would be used otherwise. All European populations have people with dark hair so why was there a special term for Irish people with dark hair? Dark hair is one thing but not many Irish have olive skin. It is really very uncommon. Would someone like Enya be called "Black Irish" is the US?

There is real Black Irish and the most famous one would be Phil Lynott
, the late great frontman from Thin Lizzy who sadly passed away much too young.
I couldn't have said it better. And great examples there.

A lot of European countries have people with dark hair (with fair skin). Heck, some of the fairest people I've seen tend to have naturally dark hair. Now are they "black Europeans"? And what about olive to dark skinned folks with light hair, are they "white" now? There's just no logic in determining someone's race by their hair colour.

Oh, a correction about Tom Jones and Catherine Zeta-Jones. I referred to them as "black Irish" up there. I meant to say "black Welsh".
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Old 09-01-2016, 07:29 PM
 
3,431 posts, read 2,570,301 times
Reputation: 4092
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie20 View Post
There is nothing mysterious about people having dark hair and eyes. They are in every population. My main beef is the term "the Black Irish". That is not used in Ireland and I'm not exactly sure of why the term came about in the US. Someone with dark hair and eyes can have a sibling with blond hair and blue eyes. That sort of thing is very common. Every population has this variety of colouring. It is not unique to any population so why is there a special term for Irish people with dark hair?
I have no idea where the expression came from. It might have had some murky origins in the Victorian-era meaning of "black," referring to dodgy, mischievous characters. There was a notorious Irish clan of criminals in rural Ontario in the late 1800s, who live on in legend as The Black Donnellys.

Maybe the expression "black Irish" began as a bigoted one, because there was no shortage of prejudice and discrimination against the Irish way back when... How it was ever applied to dark complected Irish is beyond me. Mind you, back in the early days, some homesteaders married indigenous spouses and had quite dark haired and dark complected kids. The indigenous ethnicity was hidden as a secret by many families after a couple of generations... the explanation for a family member's black hair and brown skin would be attributed to a "black Irish" grandparent.
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Old 09-01-2016, 10:16 PM
 
28 posts, read 14,733 times
Reputation: 27
I am slavic, my eyes are huge. Same goes for my family, my mother has probably the most astonishing eyes I've ever seen on a person (sadly mine aren't nearly as pretty). So yeah, not sure how much I buy your "experiences".
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Old 09-02-2016, 09:08 AM
 
4,690 posts, read 7,176,408 times
Reputation: 980
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
Hm, I'd say that Clooney's skin is darker than his. And whilst Clooney is "darker" (could be the tan), Kaufmann still appears more "ethnic looking" with his large eyes, prominent nose/lips and curly hair. An ethnic German barely looks like that. Not to mention, Clooney doesn't have exotically big lips, hooked nose and curly hair. Only his colouring is "exotic".

Kaufmann looks North African (Moroccan, Tunisian) or at least Turkish to me. I wouldn't be surprised if he had North African or Turkish ancestry. After all, Germany does have a lot people belonging to these ethnic groups. And since Germany is a white country by default, it won't be surprising if foreigners "Germanize" their names and claim German ancestry.

Kaufmann: https://static01.nyt.com/images/2014...ByNine1050.jpg (very Semitic eyes, lips and nose shape)
Clooney: http://www.jpost.com/HttpHandlers/Sh...ashx?ID=327600 (face shape looks European, but skin is dark)

P.S. Yes, we know that these are Clooney's ethnic make ups. But sometimes, people don't always tell their "full" ethnic make up, or at least, they just wouldn't know. Now Clooney may not have North African heritage, but Southern European or the Caucasus should still be on the table.
Well you are the one who implying a Semitic link to Jonas Kaupfmann which might not be existant. Don't fall into that Nazi-like trap. There are Germans who are dark, it doesn't mean that they are Jewish.
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