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I still have to understand one thing: do people advocate one lingua franca as a universal second language (except for native speakers) or a universal language?
I think that it would be a universal secondary language. But thousands of languages are in danger of vanishing. Mexico, for instance, has 53 languages and most of them will vanish. Since many of them have no traditional written form, scholars are anxious to develop written versions and to preserve the languages for posterity. Many of the languages are tonal (like Chinese) which makes audio preservation even more important.
It is possible in 1000 years there will be a universal language, but I don't think that will happen sooner. But that would mean society would have to change radically in two ways. The first would be assimilation or destruction of current languages, and the second would be failing to create new ones.
Consider that in less than 1000 years, the language of the Romans, Latin, was bifurcated into all the present day Romance languages, principally Portuguese, Spanish, French, Italian, and Romanian. At the same time, English has absorbed almost the entire vocabulary of Latin and added it to it's Germanic grammatical underpinnings.
Plus consider the lesser Romance languages, or the ones that have gone extinct: Catalan, Leonese, Moldovan, Occitan , Gallo, Norman, Venetian, Walloon, Galician , Aragonese, and Ladino. In addition think of how many dialects of Spanish and Portuguese exist.
If space exploration technology growth outstrips globalization, people will begin settling other parts of the galaxy using their native, heterogeneous cultures. In this case human language splinters again.
If globalization outstrips space exploration technology, then a single world culture will emerge before we begin settling other parts of the galaxy. In this case English will become the universal human language.
Both of these processes will take centuries to play out.
I think quite the opposite is true. If humans do get to space then bye bye languages. Why? Because the need for communication will expand so much more. Imagine trying to get work done on a space station but you can't because the people on the other end don't speak the same language? Because technical and scientific understanding will be so important, communication will be pivotal to space exploration working. Even if people are in different areas, they will always be linked by the internet or some form of communication. Information will be so pivotal that the idea of having multiple standards will be even more problematic.
For example, do you think that the imperial and metric system will be able to cohabitate in space? Nope, the Imperial system will kick the bucket.
Irish was destroyed also because the British Empire has occupied Ireland for centuries, not a small particular.
Yeah, Irish is gone because of domination and colonization, not because the Irish wanted to broaden their linguistic horizons.
Had Irish survived until today, people like our friend wouldn't be singing that tune. They'd be singing the same tune as all of the other peoples of the world who still have their own languages, and would laugh you out of the room if you suggested they should jettison it for English.
The irish example is due to direct occupation and takeover by England, the English language is not overtaking other languages the same way Hokkien is being eclipsed by Mandarin, no, it is the result of other foreigners in their elitist mind wishing to impose it since they do not wish to lose their language. Maybe the USA better adapt and just switch to Spanish for the whole population soon so they don't have to shed any tears. The British could use French so what now is English could be forgotten to exist. Easier for a loved one to die early than to divorce, isn't it?
English as a language is not considered equal to their precious prescriptive messes which they so love to tout, and like colonial troops owned by a callous and ignorant empire, English is now being sent out to soak up bullets so their "expressive native languages" do not leave their artificial powder wigged neck of the world, Le French or Russian is the rear echelon troop sitting back. It is so much easier to be a bigoted waste of space to one of their own, it is fine to be fiercly anti-irish but not anti-asian.
For example: Ask what the most racist 1st world country is to a bunch of snooty powder wigged types and you will get: USA. Not Japan with fierce blood purity laws but the good US of A. In fact many Europeans or European-lights (anything south of the US border who has taken up the smug mantle) would think Japan to be an enlightened great society unlike the stupid USA... tell that to my Korean friend's grandmother, how great and humane Japanese society has been to the whole green earth, and expect to be thrown out of her house.
The Irish example is valid though, because Irish students are taught Irish and have been for many years, and yet most abandon it after school because all they need is English and it's inefficient to know two languages when you only need to know one. And over the course of the 20th century, the Gaeltacht has shrunk because Irish speakers have chosen to switch over to English. That's after home rule and independence.
There were thousands of languages in prehistory and slowly but surely most are being eliminated while the few that survive are adopted by those whose native languages disappeared. We can see where this trend is going.
Well then, from your point of view, native English speakers must be the most ignorant people on Earth, since they're the ones that can't be bothered* to learn any single language. Their success when trying to communicate depends on someone else learning English. If the rest of the world suddently turns around and decides English isn't relevant, you will be left behind.
And, following this track of thought, everyone else is pretty cultured since they can understand their mother tongue, English, and they usually learn some other language to boot.
English is the dominant form of human communication? Man, your ego is big enough that it can be seen from unknown galaxies. Now we know that if aliens aren't making contact with us it's because there's a barrier keeping them from reaching us: The native-English speaker's ego.
And just one thing that you didn't take into consideration:
Did you see what happened to Spanish? It's spread so far and wide that there are many dialects, to the point where we have to ask each other what this or that expression means, and be careful not to use certain words because they could mean something funny in a specific region. (Concha is a beautiful name! Why are you laughing!?)
From what I know, regulating our dictionary is a little bit complicated.
If English took over it would be influenced by the mother tongue of each speaker, morphing into much more diverse dialects than what we Spanish speakers have. And regulating it would be nigh impossible, because there would be billions of people not caring about what some academic living oceans apart is saying.
But there's actually a lot of people who don't need to stray far from their backyard. Like my baker, for example. She needs no international presence to sell her bread since it only reaches a few homes from around the neighborhood. All of her clients speak her mother tongue so she really has no need nor interest in learning English, and I can't see her ever opening a bakery on England so what is her disadvantage?
It's nothing like reading because reading IS required for everyday things. Speaking a second language is not.
Reading contributes far more to the culture of someone than learning a language they don't care about, too, so there's that.
Let the ones that have to interact internationally learn as many languages as they need to in order to succeed, everyone else should be free to learn whatever language they prefer. Not everyone likes English.
About accomplishing great things: The people with the right skillset will be naturally attracted to whatever it is they need to do to fit into a group that will allow them to accomplish great things.
I'd say money and inequality would be more of an obstacle to them reaching their goals, than speaking English.
Other, more important reasons being:
The country is dangerous.
The country isn't as hyped up.
Does your average Joe even know that the country exists?
Those people are the ignorant ones, not because they don't understand Northwest Indian, but because they're bewildered by someone trying to learn a beautiful language.
The time spent is worth as long as the person enjoys what they are learning. And learning a language, any language, is going to enrich your life.
*#Not all Native English speakers!
So you prefer to be abrasive rather than reasonable with your responses huh?
1.
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English is the dominant form of human communication?
Pick another language then buddy for the most dominant. I bet most people on this website are going to agree that it is English. By the way if you are in Europe, even your own people agree with me. Remember this from an earlier post
Like it or not, but it's basically a fact. Which language is much of science transmitted during this period? Give me a serious contender against the notion that English is not the most dominant form of language.
If you had said that Americans can learn a second language that would be reasonable. Spanish is reasonable for Americans to learn. Europe has 24 languages. It is reasonable for an average person to speak 2-3 or maybe 4 languages? Not 24! That is not reasonable it's silly. By not choosing to narrow the field down, they are simply giving the rest of the world the option to ignore most of those languages and do it ourselves, which is exactly what is happening.
2.
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If the rest of the world suddenly turns around and decides English isn't relevant, you will be left behind.
Sure, just stop people from literally around the world. Easy right? Wrong! Makes about as much sense as convincing everyone from around the world to adopt the Imperial system when only 1 nation is the hold-out. Why don't we make this silly argument that all of us should have a different standard of measure? Because it's silly!
These are just plain excuses because people don't want to feel like they are "losing" to America. Get over it! That would be like talking to someone and explaining to them that they should believe in science. They reply, "Well my culture doesn't believe in science so we don't want to lose to you!" Plain nonsense. What if I made this stupid excuse about not switching to the metric system? "We don't want to lose to you Europeans and your metric system!" Would you think that is smart? Notice that your so called rebuttals simply are excuses about why people should not worry too much about interacting with the world = ignorance.
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I'd say money and inequality would be more of an obstacle to them reaching their goals, than speaking English.
Money and inequality are the driver and not language? The biggest real problem is that some groups of people, particularly in Europe and America have skills, education, connections and experiences that they can leverage in the market-place. How are other poorer people going to get those benefits? By communicating, learning the skills they have, learning the knowledge that has been ascertained. Your position only makes it worse. Imagine trying to close a skills & inequality gap with women if they were blocked from speaking with men due to cultural factors like in Saudi Arabia? Would you think that it made sense? Yet having a massive barrier of speech does!? Guess what tool that most people think is the greatest one in improving peoples life. - Education. So do you really think language barriers are going to increase the ability to get an education or block it? Obviously it will block it! I can find material from khan academy and youtube going all the way from basic math to quantum physics. Then you wonder why I am so bullish on English. How much educational material are you going to find on the internet in a random NW Indian language?
There are also people who don't have access to the internet. Does everyone need access to the internet? Sure you could live in a society without the internet, but it would be backwards. I have met people who don't believe in science too. They are doing just fine as well. Nope don't need to understand science for your daily life either! Most people don't use all of that in their jobs either. Why bother learning all that math?
Is it reasonable for people to learn 24 languages? Seriously! It would be better if Americans learned 1 or 2 more languages not 23! Americans simply are lucky to be born to have a language that so many other people speak that they are insulated. Europeans are being ridiculous for not agreeing to speak a common language. When you formed the EU you thought a common currency was good for integration, open doors on movement, but not speaking? Come on! If you did you might not have this whole, "These XYZ people who are moving here don't speak my language" nonsense.
So is it reasonable to say to Americans, (or anyone for that matter) "Go and learn 100s of languages." Or should everyone simply agree to learn one so that they can communicate? If you want it to be Esperanto, sure I'm fine with it. The only problem is convincing major world governments, 100s of millions of people to begin learning a language that has no historical or institutional ties. If you think Spanish is better then present a case and not just excuses. I can be convinced and I am not against it. English has those advantages. Simply saying the obvious that we should embrace the language that millions of people around the world already agree is the most important second language is simply logical. If you have a better language to pick then go ahead and give your reasons. But if you want to use ignorance as an excuse then you are going to only make life worse for average people.
This is childish... Guess what 3 skills children learn? How to walk, talk and use the bathroom. If using the bathroom was limited in the same way that speaking is, would you seriously defend that? Imagine meeting a grown man who pees on himself. "But he went to College!" - your friend replies. Wouldn't that come off as ridiculous. Most people would reluctantly put up with it if they had to, but encourage it... Of course not!
If people want to have more than one language, where the average person knew an international language, a local one + whatever else, fine. But not being able to talk with other human beings = ignorant backwards tribal nonsense. And you defend that crap
I'm being abrasive? Well I find you to be rather amusing, tbh.
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Originally Posted by Logicist027
Pick another language then buddy for the most dominant. I bet most people on this website are going to agree that it is English. By the way if you are in Europe, even your own people agree with me. Remember this from an earlier post
Like it or not, but it's basically a fact. Which language is much of science transmitted during this period? Give me a serious contender against the notion that English is not the most dominant form of language.
The dominant form of communication in Spain is Spanish. The dominant form of communication in France is French. The dominant form of communication in Italy is Mandarin Chinese... probably. Maybe I'm wrong on that one, though!
You're only looking at a very tiny fraction of the picture to argue that English is the dominant language. Do you really believe most of the global population speaks English on a daily basis? You're delusional.
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Originally Posted by Logicist027
If you had said that Americans can learn a second language that would be reasonable. Spanish is reasonable for Americans to learn. Europe has 24 languages. It is reasonable for an average person to speak 2-3 or maybe 4 languages? Not 24! That is not reasonable it's silly. By not choosing to narrow the field down, they are simply giving the rest of the world the option to ignore most of those languages and do it ourselves, which is exactly what is happening.
You-don't-have-to.
You don't have to learn every single language. You just need to learn those of the countries you're going to go to.
What kind of business do you have in mind, that you expect a single person to interact with every ****ing European living on Earth? ...I think you have in mind a future so far and different from what we're now that it might as well be an alternate reality. Whatever fantasy land you're arguing from doesn't look anything like my world, so I'm pretty sure any further discussion won't be anything more than a spectacle. (Fine by me.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logicist027
Sure, just stop people from literally around the world. Easy right? Wrong! Makes about as much sense as convincing everyone from around the world to adopt the Imperial system when only 1 nation is the hold-out. Why don't we make this silly argument that all of us should have a different standard of measure? Because it's silly!
You think it's possible and practical to anihilate every single language there is and replace it with English, but don't think there's a single chance the world could decide to adopt another language for international relationships?
But yeah, I'm totes the irrational one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logicist027
These are just plain excuses because people don't want to feel like they are "losing" to America. Get over it! That would be like talking to someone and explaining to them that they should believe in science. They reply, "Well my culture doesn't believe in science so we don't want to lose to you!" Plain nonsense. What if I made this stupid excuse about not switching to the metric system? "We don't want to lose to you Europeans and your metric system!" Would you think that is smart? Notice that your so called rebuttals simply are excuses about why people should not worry too much about interacting with the world = ignorance.
[And on an on it goes]
Lulz.
You've fallen into the void of senseless rambling. I dig it.
Last edited by Arigarisha; 10-27-2015 at 04:06 PM..
I think quite the opposite is true. If humans do get to space then bye bye languages. Why? Because the need for communication will expand so much more. Imagine trying to get work done on a space station but you can't because the people on the other end don't speak the same language? Because technical and scientific understanding will be so important, communication will be pivotal to space exploration working. Even if people are in different areas, they will always be linked by the internet or some form of communication. Information will be so pivotal that the idea of having multiple standards will be even more problematic.
For example, do you think that the imperial and metric system will be able to cohabitate in space? Nope, the Imperial system will kick the bucket.
Yes and no. Things could go some other way..
Chinese could colonize Centaurus while American Cassiopeia. So the main languages would survive independently.
Like Latin was the Lingua Franca of the Roman Empire but a couple of thousand years late people speak different languages with the same Latin root. In space communications would take an incredible amount of time between different stars. And things could go wrong etc. So in a distant time languages would evolve independently depending of the origins of the people with certainly an English base.
The Irish example is valid though, because Irish students are taught Irish and have been for many years, and yet most abandon it after school because all they need is English and it's inefficient to know two languages when you only need to know one. And over the course of the 20th century, the Gaeltacht has shrunk because Irish speakers have chosen to switch over to English. That's after home rule and independence.
There were thousands of languages in prehistory and slowly but surely most are being eliminated while the few that survive are adopted by those whose native languages disappeared. We can see where this trend is going.
These behaviours do not exist in a vacuum. Irish was reduced to second class status and was close to dying out. English was elevated to prestige language status and ''seeded'' as the language of government, business and society in general. Then they tried to bring back Irish, Of course that has little chance of being successful.
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