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View Poll Results: Are genetics useless outside of the medical research field?
Yes, genetics are mostly useless 6 23.08%
No, they aren't 19 73.08%
Who cares about genetics anyway 1 3.85%
Voters: 26. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-30-2016, 02:22 PM
 
Location: western East Roman Empire
5,453 posts, read 9,133,109 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by censusdata View Post
... humans have been mixing for thousands of years ...
And any human with a lick of common sense who has studied political, economic and cultural history and, in a word, just plain old history, already knows that, without any need of "genetics" to prove anything, it's already there plain as the nose on our faces.

So "genetics" all of a sudden discovers that water boils, wheels role, and bread slices. Really?

Or like all these expensive "diet and nutrition" studies to tell us what a large swathe of humans have already known for thousands of years, the Mediterranean diet is healthy.

No,shit, Sherlock.
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Old 03-30-2016, 02:38 PM
 
Location: New Albany, Indiana (Greater Louisville)
9,239 posts, read 19,012,630 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bale002 View Post
And any human with a lick of common sense who has studied political, economic and cultural history and, in a word, just plain old history, already knows that, without any need of "genetics" to prove anything, it's already there plain as the nose on our faces.

So "genetics" all of a sudden discovers that water boils, wheels role, and bread slices. Really?

Or like all these expensive "diet and nutrition" studies to tell us what a large swathe of humans have already known for thousands of years, the Mediterranean diet is healthy.

No,shit, Sherlock.
Many people refuse to admit mixing occurred. I know many older people that actually consider it "sinful". Others may not need a DNA test to prove it but some people do.
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Old 03-31-2016, 09:32 AM
 
Location: San Diego, California Republic
15,780 posts, read 19,375,273 times
Reputation: 7996
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
That's what we're taught. In primary and secondary school, we are generally taught that each European country is some sort of monolith, and that there is very little variation within borders.



No, I don't. However, it would be interesting to know what many Europeans' ancestries looked like just 150 years ago (not quite the 10 generations I mentioned). How many would be in the same country? Neighboring countries? This is not the case for many Americans.



I don't disagree. When I was reading about my haplotype, it was mostly about people who lived in the Bronze Age; even with the amount of information we have on people who lived at that time, we can't really "know" anything about them. We can only speculate, I took it for not much more than entertainment.



We are just a people looking for an identity. We know virtually nothing about ourselves. We want a connection to a past, maybe even a culture to adhere to or justify, whatever those may be.

We are taught that the world is a rich place full of culture, and see our own culture as incredibly watered down, invented mostly by ourselves, but overall fairly plain and boring, and not particularly unique. The melting pot is an amalgam.

I grew up in a Mexican-American family in a Mexican-American neighborhood. But how Mexican-American am I, and am I even? These are the types of questions Americans want answered, because they flat out don't know.
Pretty much. Many Americans have been told that they belong to such and such culture only to find out later that they are much more genetically closer to another.

As a Black American, I am quite curious to know all of my ancestry which in my family is quite varied.
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Old 03-31-2016, 09:37 AM
 
Location: San Diego, California Republic
15,780 posts, read 19,375,273 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by improb View Post
That isn't true. Northern European countries have received immigrants from throughout the world since at least the 50s but France started receiving immigrants from the end of the 19th century already, first it was Italians and Belgians, then Central Europeans, then a second wave of Southern Europeans and Maghrebins, ecc.

Europe is far from being a monolithic bloc, migrations occured also within countries. Nowadays, Southern Italian surnames are the most common surnames in Northern regions.



Having a culture to adhere to is a must. But often that culture is ahead of our eyes and we are inconsciously already part of it, that's the culture of our countries and after that, several specific subculture within it. We may reject our culture but unless we isolate ourselves from what surrounds us, we'll always be part of it.
David is saying that we are taught that Europe (and everywhere else for that matter) is monolithic. Not that it is actually true.

The real difference here is; Europeans had their culture before the nation states which were built around those cultures. In the US, the nation was built first so there was no culture to build it around.
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Old 03-31-2016, 10:20 AM
 
Location: New Albany, Indiana (Greater Louisville)
9,239 posts, read 19,012,630 times
Reputation: 8414
In general American K-12 education is dumbed down and tends to make everything more simple than it actually is. I was actually taught that Rome "fell in a day" because telling students that it took hundreds of years was too complicated. A simplistic view of Europe and our ancestry is just one way that thinking comes out.


Americans are taught that Europe is frozen in time in 1800 so we don't have to be confused about our "ethnic identity" lol. We're taught that each country has it's own temperament and facial features. We're taught that if you're Irish you have a bad temper and drink a lot, if you're German you always show up early for appointments, etc. It's complete foolishness. If you've studied history you would understand that humans have been moving around looking for a better life since the first cave man. The whole nation state concept itself is new.


What's really interesting is how the opposite is true for what American children are taught about the third world, which is that all of Africa is the same, Latin America is all the same, all Native Americans hunted buffalo and rode horses, etc. We make Europe more complicated than it is but then view all non Europeans as having no diversity at all.

Last edited by censusdata; 03-31-2016 at 10:42 AM..
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Old 03-31-2016, 04:26 PM
 
Location: Somewhere in Southern Italy
2,986 posts, read 1,592,081 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gentoo View Post
David is saying that we are taught that Europe (and everywhere else for that matter) is monolithic. Not that it is actually true.

The real difference here is; Europeans had their culture before the nation states which were built around those cultures. In the US, the nation was built first so there was no culture to build it around.
I got that, i was just pointing that out further. I'm glad a decent discussion has came out of this, for a moment before opening the thread i feared for the worst but the usual suspects are staying out. Maybe due to them being proved wrong

Anyway, that may explain why i have seen, heard and read of American being surprised at how multicultural European countries are or are getting. It seems that only now that they are becoming aware of that with the refugee crisis while France, UK, Benelux and Germany have been immigration countries for a long, long time, even centuries. Anyway, i think that both Italy and Germany are exceptions as just as in the USA, the countries were formed before a common culture actually emerged, i think that can still be seen in especially Italy where there are profound differences between the Southern and Northern halves of the country that have started decreasing only due to immigration from the South to the North after World War Two

Anyway, the pollsters seem to disagree with me, if i had made this same question in Europe, most would agree instead. One of several differences between this side of the pond and yours i guess............................................
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Old 03-31-2016, 04:46 PM
 
Location: Arvada, CO
12,035 posts, read 20,832,918 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by improb View Post
Anyway, that may explain why i have seen, heard and read of American being surprised at how multicultural European countries are or are getting. It seems that only now that they are becoming aware of that with the refugee crisis while France, UK, Benelux and Germany have been immigration countries for a long, long time, even centuries.
We are led (indoctrinated?) to believe that we are the only multicultural or melting pot nation in the world. That's what makes us "special".

American History in a nutshell:
Our "ancestors" came to this country to escape "oppressions" in Europe. They had dinner with Native Americans in late November (but no one really knows what happened to all of them). Blacks came here via the slave trade and are now free thanks to Abraham Lincoln. Very little is taught or understood about Asian contribution to American society or why they are here, and Latinos are here as remnants of Spanish conquistadorism or illegal immigration. This is the greatest country in the world and every other country in the world should aspire to be like us, and if not, well that's because they don't have FREEDOM and we do, and that's why we're the greatest country in the world.

The end.
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Moderator for Los Angeles, The Inland Empire, and the Washington state forums.
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Old 03-31-2016, 04:56 PM
 
Location: Somewhere in Southern Italy
2,986 posts, read 1,592,081 times
Reputation: 1447
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
We are led (indoctrinated?) to believe that we are the only multicultural or melting pot nation in the world. That's what makes us "special".

American History in a nutshell:
Our "ancestors" came to this country to escape "oppressions" in Europe. They had dinner with Native Americans in late November (but no one really knows what happened to all of them). Blacks came here via the slave trade and are now free thanks to Abraham Lincoln. Very little is taught or understood about Asian contribution to American society or why they are here, and Latinos are here as remnants of Spanish conquistadorism or illegal immigration. This is the greatest country in the world and every other country in the world should aspire to be like us, and if not, well that's because they don't have FREEDOM and we do, and that's why we're the greatest country in the world.

The end.
Really? I'm not excited by the way history is taught because i think it's a bit on the Eurocentric side of things, although history books are giving a larger and larger space to what was happening elsewhere (coverage of the Pacific front in WW2 and Japan's role during that war is still little though), but it seems the way history is taught in the USA is inappropriate. I still have doubts about that, i find it hard to believe that they make it so simple
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Old 03-31-2016, 06:59 PM
 
Location: East of the Sun, West of the Moon
12,540 posts, read 13,896,892 times
Reputation: 22078
Quote:
Originally Posted by censusdata View Post
In general American K-12 education is dumbed down and tends to make everything more simple than it actually is. I was actually taught that Rome "fell in a day" because telling students that it took hundreds of years was too complicated. A simplistic view of Europe and our ancestry is just one way that thinking comes out.


Americans are taught that Europe is frozen in time in 1800 so we don't have to be confused about our "ethnic identity" lol. We're taught that each country has it's own temperament and facial features. We're taught that if you're Irish you have a bad temper and drink a lot, if you're German you always show up early for appointments, etc. It's complete foolishness. If you've studied history you would understand that humans have been moving around looking for a better life since the first cave man. The whole nation state concept itself is new.


What's really interesting is how the opposite is true for what American children are taught about the third world, which is that all of Africa is the same, Latin America is all the same, all Native Americans hunted buffalo and rode horses, etc. We make Europe more complicated than it is but then view all non Europeans as having no diversity at all
.
Really? Sue your Board of Education. I went to an inner-city high school with 90% minority students, daily fights, pregnant teen students and all kids of strife. Yet it seems my teachers gave me a much better education than it seems your teachers gave you.

Your education sounds like something that would have come off a pamphlet in a box of Cracker Jacks if Cracker Jacks existed in 1930s Germany.
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Old 03-31-2016, 08:29 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
18,074 posts, read 22,110,476 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by censusdata View Post
I feel that modern ancestry genetics (as opposed to less scientifically based genetics research of the Nazis) actually is the greatest threat to White Supremacy, which is based on the notion of racial purity. Genetics shows that people are far more mixed than we ever imagined. Until a couple generations ago it was deeply shameful to have non White ancestry if you were White American. Today it is considered trendy to find your hidden ancestors.


We now know that most White Southerners are 1% to 5% Native America or African and that most Black Americans are 25% European. White Americans of Mediterranean ancestry have significant amounts of African and Arab ancestry. Many of the Spanish Conquistadors whose ancestors now live in parts of the American Southwest were actually Jews fleeing the Inquisition. Such findings shows the absurdity of "Miscegenation" Laws, humans have been mixing for thousands of years.


Previous "Race Science" was based on the notion that populations were pure and unique. Since DNA analysis wasn't available then everything was based on looks. The purpose was to divide people, not unite.
Most white (Southerners) do not have Native American or African heritage.

How Many White People Have Hidden Black Ancestry? - The Root

“'Southern states with the highest African American populations tended to have the highest percentages of hidden African ancestry,' Hadly writes of Bryc’s findings. 'In South Carolina at least 13 percent of self-identified whites have 1 percent or more African ancestry, while in Louisiana the number is a little more than 12 percent. In Georgia and Alabama the number is about 9 percent.'"

That's still a significant number, but certainly not "most". For the US as a whole, about 4% of people who identify as white have 1% or more African DNA.

The percentage who identify as African American have about 24% European DNA on average, as you noted.

Determining native American admixture is problematic due to a relative lack of comparative populations in the common genetic testing databases.

From research done at 23AndMe, the same data referenced above:

The Genetic Ancestry of African Americans, Latinos, and European Americans across the United States

"We estimate that European Americans who carry at least 2% Native American ancestry are found most frequently in Louisiana, North Dakota, and other states in the West. Using a less stringent threshold of 1%, our estimates suggest that as many as 8% of individuals from Louisiana and upward of 3% of individuals from some states in the West and Southwest carry Native American ancestry."

So most white Americans do not have NA ancestry, and those that do are not from the South.

I am a white Southerner and I've been able to construct a pretty thorough family tree. My admixture at 23AndMe is 99.7% European and totally consistent with my paper trail. The other 0.3% is an intriguing 0.2% Mongolian and 0.1% Native American. Possibly - even probably - that's just noise when I consider my known family tree. However, it is intriguing to see it there.

As far as the thesis of the OP is concerned, most of us who have had our DNA tested did so for curiosity and entertainment. I did the 23AndMe testing when you could get medical results. It was interesting to see how those results correlated with what I know about myself. What's wrong with using genetics to have fun?
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