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But the premise is wrong. Many think of Europe as a living museum, where you can trace a certain trait to a certain region of a certain country. Europeans, like all others, have been very mobile, physical borders have existed for merely a couple of hundreds of years. People have moved due to erosion, work, natural disasters trade, wars, religious persecution, education, love you name it. The example "my family has been in the same town for 10 generations" is so extremely rare and true only for a tiny fraction of the population in some particular areas in Europe, mostly small Mediterranean islands. And probably even there was some pirates or wars where the enemy came raping every female villager under 70 and injected some fresh semen. Or snatched away to be sold as a slave or indentured servant somewhere completely else.
If half of Europe crossed the Atlantic Ocean to America, I hardly think that switching villages within a same country was really that hard. Do you?
Secondly, 90% of the gene 'debate' for example on C-D is pure pseudoscience. There has never been conducted any large-scale genetic studies regarding hair, skin or eye colour in Europe. Not domestically, not on an EU level. Some countries have some studies with very small target groups, mostly to get to know about the country's genetic makeup. Usually as a part of a larger medical study.
I repeat, nobody have never conducted a study to see if for example Dutch are more blonde than Belgians, and never will there.
Therefore, all these blonde maps or haplotype maps by area with defined borders are complete speculation, bogus and as credible as astrology or watching tea leaves. If there are no studies or scientific references - there's no source.
But you again have to understand that Europeans usually have quite a distaste for these gene 'debates'. For us the first thing which comes to mind of all this is nazi Germany and Auschwitz.
You want to find out about your ancestry and to find some kind of urheimat. Ok. We want nothing to do with blonde eye maps or genetic collections. We went trough that once, and never again.
To the level that collecting data on ethnicity and religion on a governmental level is illegal in every other European country but UK, Ireland and Russia. In Finland we know exactly how many inches of paved road we have, but not how many Muslims or Jews there are here.
This sums it up perfectly for me. That's the same reason why i find all this talk about genetics disturbing, there's always that feeling that people such as SaxonWorld will become a majority or that they will return to have an influence again and that our beloved countries might head back towards dark times.
I'm not bothering with your poll. My opinion is that Americans, of all people, need to recognize their connections to other people in the world. If researching one's genetic background opens a door to better understanding then let's have more of it.
That's what we're taught. In primary and secondary school, we are generally taught that each European country is some sort of monolith, and that there is very little variation within borders.
That isn't true. Northern European countries have received immigrants from throughout the world since at least the 50s but France started receiving immigrants from the end of the 19th century already, first it was Italians and Belgians, then Central Europeans, then a second wave of Southern Europeans and Maghrebins, ecc.
Europe is far from being a monolithic bloc, migrations occured also within countries. Nowadays, Southern Italian surnames are the most common surnames in Northern regions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar
We are just a people looking for an identity. We know virtually nothing about ourselves. We want a connection to a past, maybe even a culture to adhere to or justify, whatever those may be.
We are taught that the world is a rich place full of culture, and see our own culture as incredibly watered down, invented mostly by ourselves, but overall fairly plain and boring, and not particularly unique. The melting pot is an amalgam.
I grew up in a Mexican-American family in a Mexican-American neighborhood. But how Mexican-American am I, and am I even? These are the types of questions Americans want answered, because they flat out don't know.
Having a culture to adhere to is a must. But often that culture is ahead of our eyes and we are inconsciously already part of it, that's the culture of our countries and after that, several specific subculture within it. We may reject our culture but unless we isolate ourselves from what surrounds us, we'll always be part of it.
I guess it should be time to put an end to discussion on such an useless science and leave it to researchers to find the treatment to those illnesses related to genetics.
If you mean that it is mostly useless as a narrative for history, which in my view is mostly cultural, political and economic, then yes, I agree.
But people are obsessed with it, they project it backwards to fabricate their own narrative for the purposes of identity politics today, so it won't go away in spite of your plea.
That isn't true. Northern European countries have received immigrants from throughout the world since at least the 50s but France started receiving immigrants from the end of the 19th century already, first it was Italians and Belgians, then Central Europeans, then a second wave of Southern Europeans and Maghrebins, ecc.
Europe is far from being a monolithic bloc, migrations occured also within countries. Nowadays, Southern Italian surnames are the most common surnames in Northern regions.
I know it isn't true, but the average American on the street does not. Even if you asked Americans about Catalonians or Alsatians, their response would likely be:
Quote:
Originally Posted by improb
Having a culture to adhere to is a must.
I don't think you are quite aware as to how bland of a culture many Americans live in. More Vanilla than French Vanilla.
That's what we're taught. In primary and secondary school, we are generally taught that each European country is some sort of monolith, and that there is very little variation within borders.
No, I don't. However, it would be interesting to know what many Europeans' ancestries looked like just 150 years ago (not quite the 10 generations I mentioned). How many would be in the same country? Neighboring countries? This is not the case for many Americans.
I don't disagree. When I was reading about my haplotype, it was mostly about people who lived in the Bronze Age; even with the amount of information we have on people who lived at that time, we can't really "know" anything about them. We can only speculate, I took it for not much more than entertainment.
We are just a people looking for an identity. We know virtually nothing about ourselves. We want a connection to a past, maybe even a culture to adhere to or justify, whatever those may be.
We are taught that the world is a rich place full of culture, and see our own culture as incredibly watered down, invented mostly by ourselves, but overall fairly plain and boring, and not particularly unique. The melting pot is an amalgam.
I grew up in a Mexican-American family in a Mexican-American neighborhood. But how Mexican-American am I, and am I even? These are the types of questions Americans want answered, because they flat out don't know.
In fact many Europeans don't know really that much about their ancestors, especially when you go many generations back. Written sources are quite scarce regarding commoners. You have to mostly dig into church birth certificates.
Ok, so for example me. My maternal grandparents were from Helsinki, the capital, and I was born there. My paternal grandparents are from another city on the south coast around 100 miles from Helsinki. My mother's grandparents were from Sweden, Karelia (a region we ceded to USSR after WWII) and the capital. My father's grandparents were from the South coast and Southern Central parts of the country from his father's side, and my dad's maternal grandparents I know almost nothing about. My aunt lives in SE Finland, my uncle in the western central part of the country.
What I've heard from my friends and some Europeans on C-D, it's quite common to have at least one grandparent who was from another country, or at least one or more grand-grandparent.
Europeans, who mostly have lived in nation states, of course don't have urge for 'seeking your roots'. If you were born in Finland, lived here, are a part of Finnish culture and feel Finnish - you are Finnish. End of story.
Europeans identify themselves by language, culture and nationality. Race is completely secondary, and not really thought about, so here is a big difference from America.
But the premise is wrong. Many think of Europe as a living museum, where you can trace a certain trait to a certain region of a certain country. Europeans, like all others, have been very mobile, physical borders have existed for merely a couple of hundreds of years. People have moved due to erosion, work, natural disasters trade, wars, religious persecution, education, love you name it. The example "my family has been in the same town for 10 generations" is so extremely rare and true only for a tiny fraction of the population in some particular areas in Europe, mostly small Mediterranean islands. And probably even there was some pirates or wars where the enemy came raping every female villager under 70 and injected some fresh semen. Or snatched away to be sold as a slave or indentured servant somewhere completely else.
If half of Europe crossed the Atlantic Ocean to America, I hardly think that switching villages within a same country was really that hard. Do you?
Secondly, 90% of the gene 'debate' for example on C-D is pure pseudoscience. There has never been conducted any large-scale genetic studies regarding hair, skin or eye colour in Europe. Not domestically, not on an EU level. Some countries have some studies with very small target groups, mostly to get to know about the country's genetic makeup. Usually as a part of a larger medical study.
I repeat, nobody have never conducted a study to see if for example Dutch are more blonde than Belgians, and never will there.
Therefore, all these blonde maps or haplotype maps by area with defined borders are complete speculation, bogus and as credible as astrology or watching tea leaves. If there are no studies or scientific references - there's no source.
But you again have to understand that Europeans usually have quite a distaste for these gene 'debates'. For us the first thing which comes to mind of all this is nazi Germany and Auschwitz.
You want to find out about your ancestry and to find some kind of urheimat. Ok. We want nothing to do with blonde eye maps or genetic collections. We went trough that once, and never again.
To the level that collecting data on ethnicity and religion on a governmental level is illegal in every other European country but UK, Ireland and Russia. In Finland we know exactly how many inches of paved road we have, but not how many Muslims or Jews there are here.
But the premise is wrong. Many think of Europe as a living museum, where you can trace a certain trait to a certain region of a certain country. Europeans, like all others, have been very mobile, physical borders have existed for merely a couple of hundreds of years. People have moved due to erosion, work, natural disasters trade, wars, religious persecution, education, love you name it. The example "my family has been in the same town for 10 generations" is so extremely rare and true only for a tiny fraction of the population in some particular areas in Europe, mostly small Mediterranean islands. And probably even there was some pirates or wars where the enemy came raping every female villager under 70 and injected some fresh semen. Or snatched away to be sold as a slave or indentured servant somewhere completely else.
If half of Europe crossed the Atlantic Ocean to America, I hardly think that switching villages within a same country was really that hard. Do you?
Secondly, 90% of the gene 'debate' for example on C-D is pure pseudoscience. There has never been conducted any large-scale genetic studies regarding hair, skin or eye colour in Europe. Not domestically, not on an EU level. Some countries have some studies with very small target groups, mostly to get to know about the country's genetic makeup. Usually as a part of a larger medical study.
I repeat, nobody have never conducted a study to see if for example Dutch are more blonde than Belgians, and never will there.
Therefore, all these blonde maps or haplotype maps by area with defined borders are complete speculation, bogus and as credible as astrology or watching tea leaves. If there are no studies or scientific references - there's no source.
But you again have to understand that Europeans usually have quite a distaste for these gene 'debates'. For us the first thing which comes to mind of all this is nazi Germany and Auschwitz.
You want to find out about your ancestry and to find some kind of urheimat. Ok. We want nothing to do with blonde eye maps or genetic collections. We went trough that once, and never again.
To the level that collecting data on ethnicity and religion on a governmental level is illegal in every other European country but UK, Ireland and Russia. In Finland we know exactly how many inches of paved road we have, but not how many Muslims or Jews there are here.
What's that got to do with genetics? Islam is a voluntary ideology. Its not genetically determined.
As to the OP - I guess they'd better shut down all the plant genetic research institutes around the world. Including Istituto di Genetica Vegetale in Italy.
Genetics exists absent human whims and fancies and prejudices. Ancestry genetics is a harmless pursuit and barely tells one anything anyway.
Most nuts trying to shut down genetic-based studies have an agenda - a religious agenda because genetics might show some truths they don't like. Like the fact that Chimpanzee and human genome are so similar. Which was only discovered over a century after Darwin (and others) finally came to an understanding of evolution.
What's that got to do with genetics? Islam is a voluntary ideology. Its not genetically determined.
As to the OP - I guess they'd better shut down all the plant genetic research institutes around the world. Including Istituto di Genetica Vegetale in Italy.
Genetics exists absent human whims and fancies and prejudices. Ancestry genetics is a harmless pursuit and barely tells one anything anyway.
Most nuts trying to shut down genetic-based studies have an agenda - a religious agenda because genetics might show some truths they don't like. Like the fact that Chimpanzee and human genome are so similar. Which was only discovered over a century after Darwin (and others) finally came to an understanding of evolution.
I have no agenda. I'm actually atheist so your assumptions couldn't be further from the truth. Anyway, i did point out the importance of genetics in certain fields such as medical one (under which i would include institutes such as the IGV), it also has a place in forensics but aside from these fields i don't see how it is of any use.
In fact, it's the misuse and overuse of genetics which disturbs me and not its existence.
Location: New Albany, Indiana (Greater Louisville)
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I feel that modern ancestry genetics (as opposed to less scientifically based genetics research of the Nazis) actually is the greatest threat to White Supremacy, which is based on the notion of racial purity. Genetics shows that people are far more mixed than we ever imagined. Until a couple generations ago it was deeply shameful to have non White ancestry if you were White American. Today it is considered trendy to find your hidden ancestors.
We now know that most White Southerners are 1% to 5% Native America or African and that most Black Americans are 25% European. White Americans of Mediterranean ancestry have significant amounts of African and Arab ancestry. Many of the Spanish Conquistadors whose ancestors now live in parts of the American Southwest were actually Jews fleeing the Inquisition. Such findings shows the absurdity of "Miscegenation" Laws, humans have been mixing for thousands of years.
Previous "Race Science" was based on the notion that populations were pure and unique. Since DNA analysis wasn't available then everything was based on looks. The purpose was to divide people, not unite.
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