Africa! What is wrong with Africa? (how much, quality of life, live)

[Mississippienne]

We should care because Africa affects every nation on Earth, in direct or indirect ways, and therefore every citizen on Earth. The time when humanity lived in isolated little nation-states and we lived blissfully unaware of anything outside our own narrow sphere is gone forever. If you don't care about Africa in any altruistic way, care that Africa's bad fortune affects you in ways you may or may not be aware of.

Alexus -- the effects of colonialism are only one factor that has ravaged Africa. The reason the Europeans were able to get such a foothold on the continent is because the native Africans were unable to defend themselves. This is extremely unfortunate but common. Because of Africa's geography and climate -- factors beyond the individual human's control -- the Africans were unable to develop the technology neccesary to protect themselves. However, once again probably due to the climate, Europeans didn't settle Africa en masse (except for South Africa) like they did in the Americas, so the native populations were spared the decimation suffered by the Amerindians.

Read Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs, and Steel for a more indepth look at why some civilizations were unable to win the arms race. The answer has nothing to do with intelligence (like racists would have you believe) but primarily to do with climate and geography. The Europeans happened to live in a region with prime farmland, excellent crops, and large animals suitable for agricultural work. The climate also suits curing and drying of food, which is absolutely ESSENTIAL for surviving famines and plagues, and developing a large scale, mobile civilization. Also, their continued exposure to animals boosted European's ability to withstand certain infectious diseases, many of which were acquired from beasts of burden. The Indians of South America, for example, had no such tradition of living side-by-side animals for thousands of years, and had developed no such resistance. That's why when Europeans arrived in the Americas, thousands upon thousands of Indians died from European diseases, and not the other way around. The Germs did the bulk of the work, and the Guns and Steel took care of the rest.

Africans had the bad luck to live on a continent with few tameable animals. Zebras, for example, are extemely wild and violent and efforts to break them to ride as with horses generally meet with disaster. African elephants are also more aggressive than their Indian cousins, and anyway take 15 years or more to reach breeding age, much too long to be worth the investment to raise them. Even in India, wild elephants are usually captured and tamed instead of being raised from infancy, just because the cost is too great. A horse, by comparison, only takes a couple of years to grow to adulthood, carry a rider, and reproduce. Despite this, the Africans did quite well for themselves, but were hopelessly far behind the Europeans, who arrived armed and ready to introduce them to the business end of a musket.

People seem content to forget that much the same thing happened anywhere the Europeans landed. It wasn't like the Africans were the first and only ones who fell prey to their superior firepower. Even the vast, ancient, and proud Chinese were helpless to stop the British from forcibly hooking them on opium. It was an utterly cutthroat era, and the Europeans weren't playing around.

[Senator Palpatein]

You've got to be kidding me!

Colonialism in a few countries in Africa is the cause of Africa's failuer - what?!

You mean to tell me that a few thousand Europeans put half a BILLION Africans under their foot?

Africa is loaded with staggering amounts of resources. Africans should technically be the richest people on Earth they've got so much in resources. Not to mention the fact they've got so much nice beach front property and wild life, they could get filthy rich with tourism alone.

Another poster said the world's shunned Africa, well we've got people here saying European contact is the cause of Africa's problem's then someone else saying not enough European, Asian, etc. contact is the cause of their problems. So which is it?

As for colonialism, a big part of it was developing business - local economies - in Africa and providing clean water, food and MEDICINE! Just recently an African country was begging for Europeans to come back - a few weeks ago!

Look at Japan and China - they were visited by the Europeans. Those countries are economic powerhouses.

Look at the continent of Europe. One third of all Europeans died in the black plague - one freaking third of the population. So why isn't Europe like Africa?

European countries have been waring against each other constantly, invading each other and oppressing each other. And changin borders. So why isn't Europe like Africa?

Look at Germany. A third of their population was killed by the black plague. Invaded by the Romans. Invaded by Muslim forces. Invaded by Napolean. Beaten down in WW I. Severly beaten down in WWII. Split in half since WWII. And yet today, Germany is the 3rd greatest economic powerhouse in the world. Explain that!

Europe doesn't have but a fraction of the resources and sunny beautiful beaches that Africa has.

[Mississippienne]

Originally Posted by Senator Palpatein

You've got to be kidding me!

Colonialism in a few countries in Africa is the cause of Africa's failuer - what?!

You mean to tell me that a few thousand Europeans put half a BILLION Africans under their foot?

Believe it or not, a couple of HUNDRED Spanish destroyed and slaughtered THOUSANDS of Aztecs and Incans. Never underestimate the power of steel weapons, gunpowder, and smallpox.

[quote=Senator Palpatein;3001328]Africa is loaded with staggering amounts of resources. Africans should technically be the richest people on Earth they've got so much in resources. Not to mention the fact they've got so much nice beach front property and wild life, they could get filthy rich with tourism alone.

Originally Posted by Senator Palpatein

Another poster said the world's shunned Africa, well we've got people here saying European contact is the cause of Africa's problem's then someone else saying not enough European, Asian, etc. contact is the cause of their problems. So which is it?

Africa's problems are COMPLEX and MANY, something people don't want to hear. People want to believe one thing or another caused Africa to become what it is today. The truth, as it often is, happens to be complicated.

Blacks are, indeed, shunned in much of the world, overtly or not. They've been exploited and enslaved for centuries. If there's anything humanity craves, it's not God, it's someone to look down on.

Originally Posted by Senator Palpatein

As for colonialism, a big part of it was developing business - local economies - in Africa and providing clean water, food and MEDICINE! Just recently an African country was begging for Europeans to come back - a few weeks ago!

WHOA. That's rich. Read up about the true history of the Rhodes scholarship and then come back here and tell me about how benevolent the Europeans were to the Africans.

The Europeans ransacked Africa for it's riches and oppressed and enslaved its peoples. That's undeniable. Africa was not the only target, and Africans probably not the worst victims (the Amerindians I think got a harsher deal, if only because they've been forced off their own lands and nearly bred into extinction) but they did suffer. The Europeans were also not in the least interested in sharing their wealth and power.

Originally Posted by Senator Palpatein

Look at Japan and China - they were visited by the Europeans. Those countries are economic powerhouses.

China has a long history of its own, and suffered under colonialism as well. But note that China is a COUNTRY and Africa is a CONTINENT. What holds true in China does not hold true in Africa. Also, the Chinese were able to develop agriculture and animal husbandry on par with the Europeans, something the Africans weren't able to do.

Japan is an ISLAND, and a homogenuous one at that, on the other side of the world. Its leaders were able to clamp down their borders and resist the Europeans, and then start aggressively modernizing. Africa, once again, is a continent hosting THOUSANDS of ethnic groups and languages, divided by dozens of religions, and its leaders were unable to close the borders as they did on an island. They were preyed upon from one direction by the Europeans, and from another by the Turks and other slavers.

Originally Posted by Senator Palpatein

Look at the continent of Europe. One third of all Europeans died in the black plague - one freaking third of the population. So why isn't Europe like Africa?

European countries have been waring against each other constantly, invading each other and oppressing each other. And changin borders. So why isn't Europe like Africa?

Look at Germany. A third of their population was killed by the black plague. Invaded by the Romans. Invaded by Muslim forces. Invaded by Napolean. Beaten down in WW I. Severly beaten down in WWII. Split in half since WWII. And yet today, Germany is the 3rd greatest economic powerhouse in the world. Explain that!

Blah blah blah. I've already discussed why Europe made the technological advances it did at length! I'm tired of repeating myself! The Europeans had massive technological and geographical advantages. Their history of warlike behavior made them aggressive and expansionist. Once they started prowling the oceans, it became a competition between the European powers as to who controlled the other continents -- Asia, Africa, Australia, the Americas.

I am a native of the American Deep South. We once were wealthy and powerful, and then we were crushed by war. My state, Mississippi, has NEVER recovered. We are poor and weak when once we were strong and wealthy. It's been almost 200 years and we're still behind. China's been going through turmoil for hundreds of years and is only just now recovering. Africa never had the advantage in the first place.

Originally Posted by Senator Palpatein

Europe doesn't have but a fraction of the resources and sunny beautiful beaches that Africa has.

Sunny beaches don't feed mouths and they don't stop wars. Africa is beset by disease, corrupt governments, militias, and poverty. They didn't start out ahead and then get smashed like Germany did -- they never were ahead to begin with! Africa's been exploited for centuries and her resources squandered. The Africans never benefited from Africa's wealth. AIDS, religious conflict, and ethnic violence are waging a war for Africa's heart and soul.

[Shizzles]

I see this is going to turn into a bash whitey fest. Let's be real here, in terms of climate and geography, Africa isn't the only hard place on earth. Scandinavia? Arabia? Indian subcontinent?

I don't think it's necessarily the Africans "fault" either. I believe that Europe had the advantage of the enlightenment spreading tolerance and economic freedom which spurred greater social innovation.


Also, keep in mind that prior to WWII, most Europeans lived in total squalor like their African counterparts. If you really get down to it, America is wholly responsible for human advancement in living standards, not Europeans.

[Mississippienne]

Originally Posted by Shizzles

I see this is going to turn into a bash whitey fest. Let's be real here, in terms of climate and geography, Africa isn't the only hard place on earth. Scandinavia? Arabia? Indian subcontinent?

I don't think it's necessarily the Africans "fault" either. I believe that Europe had the advantage of the enlightenment spreading tolerance and economic freedom which spurred greater social innovation.


Also, keep in mind that prior to WWII, most Europeans lived in total squalor like their African counterparts. If you really get down to it, America is wholly responsible for human advancement in living standards, not Europeans.

Oh, PUHLEAZE. I'm white, and I'm the main person here arguing that Africans AREN'T just lazy and criminal inherently. We whites don't have to get defensive and angry just because someone brings up the point that some of this crap is OUR FAULT. No, we didn't do it all, but we contributed to the problem. It ain't like the Africans looked around and said, "Hey, let's all live in poverty and watch our kids starve to death! Yay!"

Total squalor? WHAT? Are you seriously suggesting that most French and Germans lived in little mud huts and carried baskets on their heads prior to 1935? The enlightenment thing is pretty rich, too. Yeah, I'm sure those Africans found it "enlightening" when they were forced to dig diamonds for Cecil Rhodes, and the Native Americans were no doubt "enlightened" when the whites sterilized them. European colonialists never much cared for the welfare of the peoples they conquered. They might have talked a good game, but let's be reasonable here. No one conquers and oppresses people for THEIR own good. You do it for YOUR own good.

And Africa's problems aren't all caused by Europeans. That's giving them too much credit. They weren't able to develop the technology and weaponry neccesary to defend themselves. The Amerindians didn't either, but somehow everyone thinks that's "romantic" and "noble". Yeah, we sure do like 'em now that we've gotten rid of most of 'em.

[Cornerguy1]

I see this is going to turn into a bash whitey fest.

Wanna bet?

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[Shizzles]

Originally Posted by Mississippienne

Oh, PUHLEAZE. I'm white, and I'm the main person here arguing that Africans AREN'T just lazy and criminal inherently. We whites don't have to get defensive and angry just because someone brings up the point that some of this crap is OUR FAULT. No, we didn't do it all, but we contributed to the problem. It ain't like the Africans looked around and said, "Hey, let's all live in poverty and watch our kids starve to death! Yay!"

Total squalor? WHAT? Are you seriously suggesting that most French and Germans lived in little mud huts and carried baskets on their heads prior to 1935? The enlightenment thing is pretty rich, too. Yeah, I'm sure those Africans found it "enlightening" when they were forced to dig diamonds for Cecil Rhodes, and the Native Americans were no doubt "enlightened" when the whites sterilized them. European colonialists never much cared for the welfare of the peoples they conquered. They might have talked a good game, but let's be reasonable here. No one conquers and oppresses people for THEIR own good. You do it for YOUR own good.

And Africa's problems aren't all caused by Europeans. That's giving them too much credit. They weren't able to develop the technology and weaponry neccesary to defend themselves. The Amerindians didn't either, but somehow everyone thinks that's "romantic" and "noble". Yeah, we sure do like 'em now that we've gotten rid of most of 'em.

Attitudes like the ones expressed above do more to damage the psychology of places like Africa than any colonialist campaign. Yeah, blame "those people", that'll fix it. How is that any different than blaming Blacks for crime or Arabs for terrorism?

No one here said blacks are criminal or lazy, simply that a combo of physical challenges and social disorder lends itself to what we see there today. Blaming people of other races (Shades of Hilter anyone?) for your own problems is not going to solve them. It may make you feel good about yourself, but it only fills the emptyness with hate, which is never a good thing.


Oh, and as for being white, self-hate is just as destructive. See civil wars for example....

[Senator Palpatein]

To Mississippienne:

So you're saying a few thousand Europeans controlled the entire continent of Africa? That's idiocy to think a few thousand Europeans spread out all over Africa could control HALF A BILLION PEOPLE! How is that logistically possible with single-shot rifles? Please explain this!

The amount of natural resources, diamonds and other assets Africa absolutely boggles the mind. Europe is just forest and trees and cold. Don't you get it? In terms of natural assets, Europe is a joke compared to Africa, Europe's not even a blip on the radar compared to Africa in resources.

What ... do YOU think Europe has microchips laying around everywhere? That technological gadgets grow on trees there?

Europe has been through the meat grinder when it comes to war. There's been over 100 terrible wars there. England was constantly at war with the French, the Spaniards, the Irish, the Scotts, the Germans, etc. 6 million Ukranians were slaughtered. Millions of Europeans died in WW 1 and then again in WW II!!!

Don't make up excuses about militias, dictators, or wars being the cause of Africas problems.

One third of EUROPE'S population was WIPED OUT - DEAD - DEAD - because of the black plague. And yet the Euro is far more valuable than the US dollar.

Don't talk to me about diseases in Africa. 1/3 of their population hasn't died. PLus they're getting FREE DRUGS to treat their diseases in many parts. Bush has been sending drugs there.

Africa gets BILLIONS of dollars from the US, Europe, Canada, Australia and probably Asia as well. Africa also gets BILLIONS of dollars from all sorts of private donations too. First Bush term, he's giving billions to Africa. And now just recently Bush is pumping billions of tax payer dollars into Africa.

Teams from Europe, US, Canada, etc. have been going to Africa since the 1800's bringing medicine, trying to stop the slave trade, digging wells, growing crops, etc., etc.

Who the heck was helping out the Europeans after the black plague and wars from Muslim invasions? No one!

So explain that - YOU CAN'T!

Answer the question.

One third of Germans or so died in the BLACK PLAGUE. Germany was plundered by the Roman empire. It was invaded by Muslim forces. It fought against Napolean. Germany got the snot beat out of them in WW I. The people there were starving. Then WW II happened and millions more Germans died. Communism divided Germany and impoverished millions of Germans. I promise you, micro chips don't grow on trees in Germany. So ANSWER THE QUESTION -- WHY IS GERMANY THE 3RD GREATEST ECONOMIC POWER IN THE WORLD? Answer this.

[moving123456]

I was recently watching a show about some Belgians that were in Africa helping villages build wells for clean water. They were not giving them any tools or equipment as far as I could tell. Everything was being dug by hand with shovels and buckets by locals. The Belgians were not finding any special spots to dig the wells or anything, they were just having the locals dig it right in the middle of their village. The only thing that the Belgians seemed to be doing was supervising and giving instructions.

I was amazed that the Africans in these villages were drinking the crap infested pond water that their animals were bathing in for their entire lives. They could have dug these wells any number of years ago on their own, but did not do it until some foreigners showed up and told them to do it. I couldn't figure out if they seriously had no idea that there is water in the ground or what their problem was for not doing it sooner.

[El Rhino]

Originally Posted by Alexus

Funny how during Bush's two terms, last week was the first time that he paid any attention to Africa, vowing to commit billions there, billions that the next president will have to make a decision on. Pathetic.

Bush and his cohorts have already spent billions and billions on Africa over the past several years, I believe he even visited a few spots in his terms. I hardly consider last week the "first time he paid any attention to Africa"


Sunny beaches don't feed mouths and they don't stop wars. .[/quote]

Tell that to people in Spain, Floridia, California, Greece, Hawaii, France, Mexico, Jamaica and so-on who wouldn't be able to feed as many mouths if they lost their sunny beaches.

As far as Africa's resources go, this may sound kind of harsh, but they weren't going to use them anyway. When Europeans landed in Sub-Sahara Africa, they didn't even have the wheel yet. This was only a few hundred years ago, really. What would they do with oil? How would they get it from the ground and to the market? The same goes for diamonds and gold. They had been sitting on these things for thousands of years and it didn't occur to them that gold and diamonds are kind of cool. They may not have gotten the best deal out of the resources they were sitting on, but without the Europeans creating a demand and extracting these resources, the oil is worthless.