U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > World
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 09-09-2017, 08:13 PM
 
Location: Sydney, Australia
9,775 posts, read 5,717,235 times
Reputation: 4754

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warszawa View Post
I would think that cities like Nice, Barcelona, Monaco, Genoa, Rome, etc, would dominate the list
These are more like good tourist destinations than livable cities. Lol.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-09-2017, 08:46 PM
 
Location: Sydney, Australia
9,775 posts, read 5,717,235 times
Reputation: 4754
Might I add, I would replace Perth with Sydney.

Perth is too isolated and it can be mundane.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-10-2017, 09:06 AM
 
Location: Turku, Finland
23,744 posts, read 15,085,557 times
Reputation: 10569
Quote:
Originally Posted by saturno_v View Post
Social and family networks particularly strong in the southern countries not the Nordic ones...
According to what? Stereotypes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by saturno_v View Post
Correlate the Scandinavian countries suicide rate with the heavy use on antidepressant (I posted the list as well, some of the Scandinavian nations are the most heavy users)....
The top 10 countries in use of antidepressants have a lot in common: highly industrialised wealthy 1st world nations, and with the exception of the US have a good social network including healthcare for all. Also these countries have the best knowledge of this relatively new type of medication.

This is the reason why these countries have a high use of antidepressants (which are often used for other reason than depression as well).

In countries like Spain and Italy the use of antidepressants doubled between 2000 and 2010. Does this mean that Spaniards and Italian became twice as unhappy in 10 years? Of course not, it would be silly to claim that. In Czech Republic the use quadrupled in 10 years, something which can probably be attributed to rising living standards.

Then take for example Paraguay or Kenya. Are these countries happier because they use less antidepressants? No, they use less, because their medicine and healthcare system isn't as advanced, doctors might not even know that such drugs exist, and if they had, the patient couldn't afford them anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saturno_v View Post
suicide rates have come down in these countries in the last 10-20 years but I suspect there is a linkage with the massive increase in the consumption of antidepressant.....the few eastern European countries on that list are in the lower portion of the ranking.
I don't like the trivialising of suicide very morally or ethically acceptable, or at least anything nice to do. Almost every suicide is a tragedy, especially preventable ones. Committing suicide is neither anything which just comes into your mind. "Oh it's cloudy and raining, I'm just gonna kill myself" is not how it goes.
It might be a process that can take years.
Studies have shown in Finland that the most common causes are: terminal illnesses (like cancer), severe depression, sexual violence, the death of a close family member, schizophrenia, long-lasting substance abuse. These are very serious reasons and not a laughing matter.

Nevertheless, in 2015 there were 731 suicides in Finland. In a country of 5.5 million inhabitants, do you think these 731 are representing the state of happiness in the country the best? I don't think so. In comparison smoking was the probable cause of over 5000 deaths. So even if the stats might give a somewhat high number, the actual people affected by this are luckily very few.
Also remember that in many cultures (especially Christian) suicide is seen as a sin, which might be a deterrent in very religious countries in Africa or South America. Additionally, in many countries one person's suicide might mean the economic downfall of the whole family, which surely works as a deterrent no matter how desperate the situation is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saturno_v View Post
For countries that claim to be "the happiest" there is something that does not look right (I visited them an my opinion confirm this)...as that book I mentioned before said, the myth of the happy Scandinavian is a well known (sad) joke.
Michael Booth's book was meant to be provocative, in order to dispel the myth that the Scandinavian countries would be some la-la-land perfect utopias, which of course we aren't. But these are the opinions of one person. Michael Booth is not a psychiatrist, psychologist or sociologist. He's a food critic.

The happy Scandinavian is a myth known by whom? You and Michael Booth? Who else, provide some reliable sources.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saturno_v View Post
Because these indexes are hogwash...you cannot measure happiness (whatever it is),I have nothing against Nordic countries but I have hard time putting them in the "happy list" with double digit suicide rates, rampant alcoholism and heavy use of antidepressant.
Ok, you think these indexes are hogwash. Got it. The antidepressant and suicide aspect I've covered. But rampant alcoholism? According to what? Stereotypes? Provide some reliable stats proving your point.
Looking again at the 2015 stats for Finland, alcohol-related deaths were around 3% of all deaths. IDK how this correlates to other Western European countries, but concerning that the average alcohol consumption is around the EU average, I suspect similar figures in other countries.

Even if the indexes can be vague sometimes, you provide even less. You have a food critic and stereotypes. I'm not convinced. Stats and surveys may be misused or misintepreted, but I think they provide more than your "Scandinavian countries aren't really happy, because I just feel like that".
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-10-2017, 04:49 PM
 
2,379 posts, read 1,437,107 times
Reputation: 1039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete View Post
According to what? Stereotypes?



The top 10 countries in use of antidepressants have a lot in common: highly industrialised wealthy 1st world nations, and with the exception of the US have a good social network including healthcare for all. Also these countries have the best knowledge of this relatively new type of medication.

This is the reason why these countries have a high use of antidepressants (which are often used for other reason than depression as well).

In countries like Spain and Italy the use of antidepressants doubled between 2000 and 2010. Does this mean that Spaniards and Italian became twice as unhappy in 10 years? Of course not, it would be silly to claim that. In Czech Republic the use quadrupled in 10 years, something which can probably be attributed to rising living standards.

Then take for example Paraguay or Kenya. Are these countries happier because they use less antidepressants? No, they use less, because their medicine and healthcare system isn't as advanced, doctors might not even know that such drugs exist, and if they had, the patient couldn't afford them anyway.



I don't like the trivialising of suicide very morally or ethically acceptable, or at least anything nice to do. Almost every suicide is a tragedy, especially preventable ones. Committing suicide is neither anything which just comes into your mind. "Oh it's cloudy and raining, I'm just gonna kill myself" is not how it goes.
It might be a process that can take years.
Studies have shown in Finland that the most common causes are: terminal illnesses (like cancer), severe depression, sexual violence, the death of a close family member, schizophrenia, long-lasting substance abuse. These are very serious reasons and not a laughing matter.

Nevertheless, in 2015 there were 731 suicides in Finland. In a country of 5.5 million inhabitants, do you think these 731 are representing the state of happiness in the country the best? I don't think so. In comparison smoking was the probable cause of over 5000 deaths. So even if the stats might give a somewhat high number, the actual people affected by this are luckily very few.
Also remember that in many cultures (especially Christian) suicide is seen as a sin, which might be a deterrent in very religious countries in Africa or South America. Additionally, in many countries one person's suicide might mean the economic downfall of the whole family, which surely works as a deterrent no matter how desperate the situation is.



Michael Booth's book was meant to be provocative, in order to dispel the myth that the Scandinavian countries would be some la-la-land perfect utopias, which of course we aren't. But these are the opinions of one person. Michael Booth is not a psychiatrist, psychologist or sociologist. He's a food critic.

The happy Scandinavian is a myth known by whom? You and Michael Booth? Who else, provide some reliable sources.



Ok, you think these indexes are hogwash. Got it. The antidepressant and suicide aspect I've covered. But rampant alcoholism? According to what? Stereotypes? Provide some reliable stats proving your point.
Looking again at the 2015 stats for Finland, alcohol-related deaths were around 3% of all deaths. IDK how this correlates to other Western European countries, but concerning that the average alcohol consumption is around the EU average, I suspect similar figures in other countries.

Even if the indexes can be vague sometimes, you provide even less. You have a food critic and stereotypes. I'm not convinced. Stats and surveys may be misused or misintepreted, but I think they provide more than your "Scandinavian countries aren't really happy, because I just feel like that".

I posted some links about alcoholism

Suicide rates in Scandinavian countries come significantly down in the last decade or two in coincidence with rising antidepressant use...sorry Spain or Italy did not experience this correlation between antidepressant use and suicide rate

Southern European countries have healthcare for all too and good social networks, at least the 3 largest ones.

You example of Kenya or Paraguay is pointless because I left out on purpose the less developed countries where other dynamics could be at play.

The myth if the "happy Scandinavian" is unfortunately well alive in some circles...

Sorry, to me the fact that I should label as "happy" a group of countries that have a suicide rate as high as any other (if not more) advanced countries makes the entire index bogus or at leas highly suspect..in this we do agree I hope...I also posted the Happy Planet Index which places Costa Rica as the happiest country in the world....make no mistake I think that is bogus too....

Michael Booth's book is based on 20 years of living in one Nordic country and acute observation which matches with mine and other people that visited or lived in these nations....I trust more them and my own eyes than some junk science index...

By the way I think we can agree that the supposed "happiness" of first world countries sometimes can be questioned...

Last edited by saturno_v; 09-10-2017 at 06:08 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-14-2017, 04:11 AM
 
Location: Turku, Finland
23,744 posts, read 15,085,557 times
Reputation: 10569
Quote:
Originally Posted by saturno_v View Post
I posted some links about alcoholism

Suicide rates in Scandinavian countries come significantly down in the last decade or two in coincidence with rising antidepressant use...sorry Spain or Italy did not experience this correlation between antidepressant use and suicide rate

Southern European countries have healthcare for all too and good social networks, at least the 3 largest ones.

You example of Kenya or Paraguay is pointless because I left out on purpose the less developed countries where other dynamics could be at play.

The myth if the "happy Scandinavian" is unfortunately well alive in some circles...

Sorry, to me the fact that I should label as "happy" a group of countries that have a suicide rate as high as any other (if not more) advanced countries makes the entire index bogus or at leas highly suspect..in this we do agree I hope...I also posted the Happy Planet Index which places Costa Rica as the happiest country in the world....make no mistake I think that is bogus too....

Michael Booth's book is based on 20 years of living in one Nordic country and acute observation which matches with mine and other people that visited or lived in these nations....I trust more them and my own eyes than some junk science index...

By the way I think we can agree that the supposed "happiness" of first world countries sometimes can be questioned...
No you didn't. I see no links about alcoholism that you posted.

I think antidepressants have brought suicide rates down in every country. In Spain suicides have been on the rise, due to the economic crisis.

But I don't understand why you are so hooked up on suicides? Do you seriously think that is the best metric to define a whole nation's level of happiness?

Yes, Michael Booth has lived for 20 years in Denmark, but it's still only his opinion.

What have you or others noticed that would refute the claim that we are happy? And what makes it less "junk"?

The 'happy Scandinavian' is not a myth. It's the truth. We ARE generally happy. Just because we are not sitting under a palm tree drinking a coconut or dancing samba wildly until 6 in the morning, not fitting some peoples' narrow stereotype what happiness is or how it should be expressed, doesn't mean we would be unhappy.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-14-2017, 04:47 AM
 
Location: Honolulu
727 posts, read 235,114 times
Reputation: 636
The Economist Intelligence Unit has also listed the most 10 livable American cities and their global ranking:

1. Honolulu (Global ranking: 17)
2. Washington DC (30)
3. Boston (34)
4. Chicago (38)
5. Miami (38)
6. Pittsburgh (41)
7. Minneapolis (41)
8. Seattle (45)
9. Atlanta (47)
10. Los Angeles (47)

According to Economist Intelligence Unit (which CNN quoted from), "Global Liveability Index" ranked 140 cities worldwide by how "livable" they are, considering economic stability, healthcare, culture and environment, education, and infrastructure.

So climate is not their consideration. Just wonder how come San Francisco is not on the list.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-14-2017, 04:52 AM
 
Location: Honolulu
727 posts, read 235,114 times
Reputation: 636
IMO Economist is too English-centric. 7 of the 10 most livable world cities are English speaking cities.

Many other cities meet the above criteria but not English speaking, i.e. Sapporo.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-14-2017, 05:35 AM
 
2,379 posts, read 1,437,107 times
Reputation: 1039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian_Lee View Post
The Economist Intelligence Unit has also listed the most 10 livable American cities and their global ranking:

1. Honolulu (Global ranking: 17)
2. Washington DC (30)
3. Boston (34)
4. Chicago (38)
5. Miami (38)
6. Pittsburgh (41)
7. Minneapolis (41)
8. Seattle (45)
9. Atlanta (47)
10. Los Angeles (47)

According to Economist Intelligence Unit (which CNN quoted from), "Global Liveability Index" ranked 140 cities worldwide by how "livable" they are, considering economic stability, healthcare, culture and environment, education, and infrastructure.

So climate is not their consideration. Just wonder how come San Francisco is not on the list.

Other nonsense from The Economist....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-14-2017, 05:37 AM
 
2,379 posts, read 1,437,107 times
Reputation: 1039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete View Post
No you didn't. I see no links about alcoholism that you posted.
Yes I did....go back and read...

Quote:
But I don't understand why you are so hooked up on suicides? Do you seriously think that is the best metric to define a whole nation's level of happiness?
Because being happy and killing yourself usually are polar opposites....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-14-2017, 08:24 AM
 
Location: Turku, Finland
23,744 posts, read 15,085,557 times
Reputation: 10569
Quote:
Originally Posted by saturno_v View Post
Yes I did....go back and read...



Because being happy and killing yourself usually are polar opposites....
I did. And you didn't.

They are polar opposites. But 2000 people who decide to commit suicide doesn't represent all 25 million inhabitants.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > World

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2017, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 - Top