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Old 11-04-2017, 09:08 AM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
677 posts, read 183,807 times
Reputation: 427

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Selen View Post
I am afraid this is going to turn into an endless thread like Ukraine and I have no intention of doing so as it is obvious you seem to have a firm but Iím afraid rather naive belief that whatever US, Western Europe and Australia does has no base in religion or self interests but only based on their unconditional love for poor Israel. I have nothing against Israel, I have very close Jewish friends I love. But to use this conflict as a way to prove the point that Muslims are supposedly blinded by religion and West is all rationality and good hearts is ludicrous.
I never brought morality into the discussion. US, Western Europe and Australia's position on the conflict is obviously driven by self-interest, not denying that at all. I just don't see it being religious in nature. All the other countries in the Arab league have been recognized by them. Self interest and religion are not mutually exclusive.

Many countries recognize both states. Why is it that Islamic countries are the only ones that do not recognize Israel (not all obviously, but a large number)? I'm excluding Bolivia and Venezuela since both countries decided to cut ties in recent years (not the same as lack of recognition).
Why do Malaysia and Indonesia refuse to recognize Israel, even though they are so far away from it? What stakes do they have in the conflict?

I'm not using this discussion as a tool to promote a specific viewpoint as that goes beyond the scope of the thread. My goal isn't to criticize Muslim countries for boycotting Israel, I'm just analyzing the data in front of me and drawing a conclusion.

If my theory is wrong, then what is your explanation behind the reasoning of the countries that chose to reject Israel's existence?
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Old 11-04-2017, 09:22 AM
 
10,549 posts, read 9,167,439 times
Reputation: 7199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzrovian View Post
Israel was recognized in 1948 before the first Arab-Israeli war and has been a UN member state ever since. A few things have happened since then -- you may have heard -- the Arabs didn't establish their own state in the West Bank, waged a number of wars against Israel and as a result Israel has been controlling that territory for 50 years. Given this state of affairs, and the requirements of the relevant UN resolutions ('land for peace'), many countries have reasonably concluded that recognizing Palestine without a peace agreement with Israel -- thereby rewarding the Palestinians with a state without asking for any compromises in return -- will not be conducive to the resolution of the conflict and long term peace in the region. THAT's the reason for why most western nations are withholding recognition, not anything having to do with religion.
you are pretending Israel was established in complete peace.
you either recognize both, or neither.
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Old 11-04-2017, 09:25 AM
 
Location: Ankara, Turkey
164 posts, read 38,137 times
Reputation: 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milky Way Resident View Post
I never brought morality into the discussion. US, Western Europe and Australia's position on the conflict is obviously driven by self-interest, not denying that at all. I just don't see it being religious in nature. All the other countries in the Arab league have been recognized by them. Self interest and religion are not mutually exclusive.

Many countries recognize both states. Why is it that Islamic countries are the only ones that do not recognize Israel (not all obviously, but a large number)? I'm excluding Bolivia and Venezuela since both countries decided to cut ties in recent years (not the same as lack of recognition).
Why do Malaysia and Indonesia refuse to recognize Israel, even though they are so far away from it? What stakes do they have in the conflict?

I'm not using this discussion as a tool to promote a specific viewpoint as that goes beyond the scope of the thread. My goal isn't to criticize Muslim countries for boycotting Israel, I'm just analyzing the data in front of me and drawing a conclusion.

If my theory is wrong, then what is your explanation behind the reasoning of the countries that chose to reject Israel's existence?
Iím afraid Iím in danger of being included in the definition of insanity by Einstein as I keep repeating myself and expect different results. You say why Malaysia and Indonesia refuse to recognize Israel, I say then why Australia refuses to recognize Palestine. You say Muslim countries boycott Israel, I say many Muslim countries recognize Israel and ask you why many western countries boycott Palestine. You ask me why those countries reject Israelís existence, I ask you why these countries reject Palestineís existence.

We could keep writing these forever, but obviously years of being convinced in something can not be changed quickly. Itís good to exchange ideas in this forum though as everyone learns something.
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Old 11-04-2017, 09:41 AM
 
Location: NYC
2,131 posts, read 2,218,760 times
Reputation: 1392
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
you are pretending Israel was established in complete peace.
you either recognize both, or neither.
There was nothing to recognize on the Palestinian side after the UN partition because they never declared their own state. The UN partitioned the area west of the Jordan river into territories designated for the establishment of a Jewish state and an Arab state but only Jews declared their own state -- Israel. The Arabs never did, and instead waged war to eradicate Israel. Afterwards, Jordan controlled the West Bank until 1967 and again the Arabs did not care about establishing a separate state for the Palestinians. That only became a thing after Israel took over the West Bank at which point, needless to say, facts on the ground changed quite considerably.
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Old 11-04-2017, 10:24 AM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
677 posts, read 183,807 times
Reputation: 427
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selen View Post
Iím afraid Iím in danger of being included in the definition of insanity by Einstein as I keep repeating myself and expect different results. You say why Malaysia and Indonesia refuse to recognize Israel, I say then why Australia refuses to recognize Palestine. You say Muslim countries boycott Israel, I say many Muslim countries recognize Israel and ask you why many western countries boycott Palestine. You ask me why those countries reject Israelís existence, I ask you why these countries reject Palestineís existence.

We could keep writing these forever, but obviously years of being convinced in something can not be changed quickly. Itís good to exchange ideas in this forum though as everyone learns something.
Fair enough, let me try to approach this from a slightly different angle.

We know that most Western countries are pro-Israel on a political level. Palestinians and Israeli's are at odds with one another, therefore West rejects Palestine.
The reason behind their support for Israel comes from political ideology and interests being in line with one another.

We know that most Muslim countries are anti-Israel. A few of them have recognized Israel, but most still don't.
Why? Palestinians are predominantly Muslim and live in the Biblical Holy Land . Israel is "occupying" it, along with the holy city of Jerusalem which is home to the Dome of the Rock. In fact this is what it says on the Iranian passport: "The holder of this passport is not entitled to travel to occupied Palestine" and that's hardly the only example.

While I don't want to turn this into a political rant, there is a key difference between the position of western countries and that of those who boycott Israel.
Western countries do not deny Palestinians the right to travel to them while the reverse regarding Israeli travel to those countries is hardly the case.
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Old 11-04-2017, 10:50 AM
 
Location: Ankara, Turkey
164 posts, read 38,137 times
Reputation: 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milky Way Resident View Post
Fair enough, let me try to approach this from a slightly different angle.

We know that most Western countries are pro-Israel on a political level. Palestinians and Israeli's are at odds with one another, therefore West rejects Palestine.
The reason behind their support for Israel comes from political ideology and interests being in line with one another.

We know that most Muslim countries are anti-Israel. A few of them have recognized Israel, but most still don't.
Why? Palestinians are predominantly Muslim and live in the Biblical Holy Land . Israel is "occupying" it, along with the holy city of Jerusalem which is home to the Dome of the Rock. In fact this is what it says on the Iranian passport: "The holder of this passport is not entitled to travel to occupied Palestine" and that's hardly the only example.

While I don't want to turn this into a political rant, there is a key difference between the position of western countries and that of those who boycott Israel.
Western countries do not deny Palestinians the right to travel to them while the reverse regarding Israeli travel to those countries is hardly the case.
Really do you expect me to defend why Iran does this and that? I canít even explain and defend everything Turkey does let alone Iran. As a Canadian you seem to defend your neighbour US a lot but thatís not how it works everywhere in the world.
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Old 11-04-2017, 12:35 PM
 
10,549 posts, read 9,167,439 times
Reputation: 7199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzrovian View Post
There was nothing to recognize on the Palestinian side after the UN partition because they never declared their own state. The UN partitioned the area west of the Jordan river into territories designated for the establishment of a Jewish state and an Arab state but only Jews declared their own state -- Israel. The Arabs never did, and instead waged war to eradicate Israel. Afterwards, Jordan controlled the West Bank until 1967 and again the Arabs did not care about establishing a separate state for the Palestinians. That only became a thing after Israel took over the West Bank at which point, needless to say, facts on the ground changed quite considerably.
Of course they didn't because by doing so it means they recognize a few western countries have the power to carve a significant land on a different continent to create a new country, at the expense of local residents who already lived there who were thoroughly against this.

I know this can going on forever but there is no doubt the west has always been biased in favour of Israel (more about the US unconditional support no matter what and the other nations habitually follow).
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Old 11-04-2017, 01:20 PM
 
Location: NYC
2,131 posts, read 2,218,760 times
Reputation: 1392
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
Of course they didn't because by doing so it means they recognize a few western countries have the power to carve a significant land on a different continent to create a new country, at the expense of local residents who already lived there who were thoroughly against this.

I know this can going on forever but there is no doubt the west has always been biased in favour of Israel (more about the US unconditional support no matter what and the other nations habitually follow).
I know WHY they didn't declare their own state -- and there is no point in debating the merits of that decision as it will depend entirely on your POV in regards to the conflict. But that's beside the point and irrelevant to the issue at hand. You questioned why the West failed to recognize Palestine when they recognized Israel. And I explained to you why: because there was nothing for them to recognize at the time, it having nothing to do with religion. There is no need to divert the discussion into other tangents which we'll never agree on.
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Old 11-04-2017, 07:07 PM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
677 posts, read 183,807 times
Reputation: 427
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selen View Post
Really do you expect me to defend why Iran does this and that? I canít even explain and defend everything Turkey does let alone Iran. As a Canadian you seem to defend your neighbour US a lot but thatís not how it works everywhere in the world.
Itís not about defending a countryís position, itís about pointing observations that are easily detectable. The original intent was to assess the positions of different countries with regards to the recognition of Kosovo and Palestine.
My personal feelings are irrelevant.

The reason I brought up Iran was to showcase an example of the position of a large number of Muslim countries. Many passports have that statement on them, with perhaps slightly different wording. Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Malaysia, the Gulf States, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon all restrict travel from/to Israel. You keep bringing Turkey up to try and counter my point, but they are an anomaly in this case (a good thing btw) and hardly representative of the less moderate Islamic countries.

A restriction on travel is the highest form of boycott that can be found.

The recognition of Israel is far more unanimous than that of Kosovo. Many countries not aligned with the west do recognise Israel, such as Russia, China, India, Brazil, Nigeria... and countless others. Given Israelís pro-western status why didnít those countries take a similar stance to the majority of Muslim ones? On the other, they do not recognise Kosovo.
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Old 11-04-2017, 07:26 PM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
677 posts, read 183,807 times
Reputation: 427
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
Of course they didn't because by doing so it means they recognize a few western countries have the power to carve a significant land on a different continent to create a new country, at the expense of local residents who already lived there who were thoroughly against this.

I know this can going on forever but there is no doubt the west has always been biased in favour of Israel (more about the US unconditional support no matter what and the other nations habitually follow).
Except that western countries recognise all other representatives of the Arab League so even if they do favour Israel, they have not excluded the possibility of recognition.

The Arabs were the ones who rejected Israel from the very beginning. The 1947 partition plan was not accepted and when Israel declared independence the following year they were attacked by their neighbors. Following the war Israel claimed more territory while the West Bank went to Jordan. In 1967, Arabs attacked it again and lost. The result of that was the takeover of Sinai, the West Bank and the Golan Heights. The final war was held in 1973 where the Arabs attacked and lost.

As you can see, in all those cases it was the Arabs who attacked Israel with the intention of destroying it. It was only after suffering a number of loses that countries like Egypt and Jordan were brought to the negotiating table.

Like I told Selen beforehand, they donít want to accept Israel because itís part of the holy land. The Dome of the Rock is in Jerusalem. Muslims view it as one of their most sacred sites, while Jews claim it as the location of the second temple of Solomon. Thatís the main reason why a large number of Muslim countries boycott Israel.
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