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Old 11-05-2017, 01:38 AM
 
Location: Ankara, Turkey
400 posts, read 289,847 times
Reputation: 375

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milky Way Resident View Post
It’s not about defending a country’s position, it’s about pointing observations that are easily detectable. The original intent was to assess the positions of different countries with regards to the recognition of Kosovo and Palestine.
My personal feelings are irrelevant.

The reason I brought up Iran was to showcase an example of the position of a large number of Muslim countries. Many passports have that statement on them, with perhaps slightly different wording. Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Malaysia, the Gulf States, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon all restrict travel from/to Israel. You keep bringing Turkey up to try and counter my point, but they are an anomaly in this case (a good thing btw) and hardly representative of the less moderate Islamic countries.

A restriction on travel is the highest form of boycott that can be found.

The recognition of Israel is far more unanimous than that of Kosovo. Many countries not aligned with the west do recognise Israel, such as Russia, China, India, Brazil, Nigeria... and countless others. Given Israel’s pro-western status why didn’t those countries take a similar stance to the majority of Muslim ones? On the other, they do not recognise Kosovo.


That’s your problem right there. You group countries as “countries aligned with the west” and “the others”, the “Muslims” and “the others” so on. You have convinced yourself these groups must act together. So you say things like Brazil isn’t aligned with the west so why does it recognize Israel? Or Turkey is Muslim so its recognition of Israel must be an “anomaly” according to you even though you were told many countries like Turkey, Egypt, Albania, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan and Jordan also recognize Israel. Are these countries all anomalies in your world?

Stop trying to fit all the world in to your narrow frames of who is aligned with who and who is what group. Cold war is over. There is such a thing as freewill.And yes a country can be a member of Nato and also recognize Palestine. Or be Muslim majority and recognize Israel. And no these countries are not “anomalies” because they don’t fit your groupings of how everyone should behave.

Last edited by Selen; 11-05-2017 at 02:20 AM..
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Old 11-05-2017, 07:43 AM
 
5,428 posts, read 3,438,666 times
Reputation: 5030
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selen View Post
[/b]

That’s your problem right there. You group countries as “countries aligned with the west” and “the others”, the “Muslims” and “the others” so on. You have convinced yourself these groups must act together. So you say things like Brazil isn’t aligned with the west so why does it recognize Israel? Or Turkey is Muslim so its recognition of Israel must be an “anomaly” according to you even though you were told many countries like Turkey, Egypt, Albania, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan and Jordan also recognize Israel. Are these countries all anomalies in your world?
I think you misunderstood what I was getting at with the grouping. Israel has been since 1948 very close to the west, and while you’re right that the Cold War is over, many relics of that era still remain. The reason I brought up Brazil, was because they do not favour Israel over the Palestinians and have recognised both, as a result. In fact, many of the nations that were part of the non-aligned movement or the Soviet bloc at the time were far more sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. Considering the fact, that many geopolitical power plays took place during the Cold-War, it’s hard to exclude it entirely from the conversation.

The countries you mentioned are all fairly secular. Egypt and Jordan only recognised Israel following the Yom Kippur war and the loss of territory. A country most definitely can be of Muslim majority and recognise Israel, but it doesn’t change the fact that the largest hostility towards it comes from Muslim countries.

Quote:
Stop trying to fit all the world in to your narrow frames of who is aligned with who and who is what group. Cold war is over. There is such a thing as freewill.And yes a country can be a member of Nato and also recognize Palestine. Or be Muslim majority and recognize Israel. And no these countries are not “anomalies” because they don’t fit your groupings of how everyone should behave.
Except that alliances play a crucial role in defining politics in this day and age, even if there is a greater degree of free will then in the past.
Consider the following examples and you’ll see that the lines are pretty easy to draw. Which country backs which independence in each of those cases? Is there not a common thread?

Palestine
Kosovo
Falkland Islands
Crimea
Tibet
Catalonia
Scotland

A country’s relation to a faction will determine in most cases, how it is viewed by the international community. Politics is best described as a game of You scratch my back and I’ll scratch yours
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Old 11-05-2017, 10:41 AM
 
Location: Finland
24,205 posts, read 24,646,382 times
Reputation: 11103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selen View Post
Western Europe and Australia does has no base in religion or self interests but only based on their unconditional love for poor Israel.
I suggest you research a bit more on the subject. Most old EU countries are very critical of Israel's actions against the Palestinians. Be assured, there is definitely not any unconditional love for Israel.
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Old 11-06-2017, 02:16 AM
 
Location: Ankara, Turkey
400 posts, read 289,847 times
Reputation: 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milky Way Resident View Post
A country most definitely can be of Muslim majority and recognise Israel, but it doesn’t change the fact that the largest hostility towards it comes from Muslim countries.
You insist bringing religion to a basically ethnic conflict not me. I can so easily change the words in your sentence to say “ A country most definitely can be of Christian majority and recognise Palestine, but it doesn’t change the fact that the largest hostility towards it comes from Christian countries.” See, so easy. I’m really bored of all this whose religion is better debate so that’s going to be it from me.

Last edited by Selen; 11-06-2017 at 02:31 AM..
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Old 11-06-2017, 08:38 AM
 
Location: Seattle WA, USA
5,676 posts, read 4,831,463 times
Reputation: 4879
I think that religion does play a role, which explains why Indonesia, Bangladesh and Pakistan do not recognizing Israel, and also the fact that the only countries that don't recognize Israel in it's entirety are Muslim, except for Lebanon which has a large Christian population and used to be Christian majority back in the 40's. But I don't think religion is the only reason, ethnicity definitely plays a role, as well as the historical circumstance of Israel's creation. If Israel was created somewhere else such as Madagascar or Crimea or who knows where, I think all Arab countries would recognize Israel, but because they are situated on such a historically important peace of land they are receiving a lot of back lash.

I think that the two state solution is a complete failure and needs to be given up on. Either Israel and Palestine need to form one state that protects both Jewish and Muslim rights similar to how Lebanon protects both Christian and Muslims, or Jordan needs to take over the west bank, and Egypt needs to take over Gaza. Palestine at this point is just too disorganized and weak to form an actual cohesive state at the moment.

Last edited by grega94; 11-06-2017 at 08:53 AM..
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Old 11-06-2017, 08:52 AM
 
Location: Seattle WA, USA
5,676 posts, read 4,831,463 times
Reputation: 4879
Also I think that calling Israel was misleading and should've been called Judea if the goal was to create a Jewish state. The kingdom of Israel (Samaria) was a polytheist state after the Union between Israel and Judah were broken.

If they wanted to create a two state solution based on historical records, this is how it should've been done.

Israel = Muslim state, Judah = Jewish state.
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Old 11-06-2017, 06:25 PM
 
5,428 posts, read 3,438,666 times
Reputation: 5030
Quote:
Originally Posted by grega94 View Post
I think that religion does play a role, which explains why Indonesia, Bangladesh and Pakistan do not recognizing Israel, and also the fact that the only countries that don't recognize Israel in it's entirety are Muslim, except for Lebanon which has a large Christian population and used to be Christian majority back in the 40's. But I don't think religion is the only reason, ethnicity definitely plays a role, as well as the historical circumstance of Israel's creation. If Israel was created somewhere else such as Madagascar or Crimea or who knows where, I think all Arab countries would recognize Israel, but because they are situated on such a historically important peace of land they are receiving a lot of back lash.
Exactly, religion plays a crucial role in the conflict, especially when one considers the land which is being contested between the two states and you’re right in saying that had Israel been located elsewhere it would not have caused such a ruckus. The former Iranian president Ahmadinejad said as much in the past, that they would have no problem recognising Israel if it were located somewhere in a Europe, Canada or Alaska.
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Old 11-12-2017, 09:09 PM
 
Location: The Ranch in Olam Haba
23,709 posts, read 30,578,252 times
Reputation: 9985
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selen View Post
I’m sure the 40 billion$ aid package US signed to give Israel last year was also for the resolution of the conflict and long term peace in the region. US is such a generous country really.
It's not a aid package for Israel. It's a debit card that Israel must use 100% of it in the US to purchase US armaments. It's a Treaty that lists certain trade offs between Israel, Egypt, Jordan and the US. The US is not being generous, it's doing so because they want something out if it. Each time there has been a flair up between the three nations, the US has thrown some cash at it to bring the fire down to embers that don't go out.
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Old 11-12-2017, 09:26 PM
 
Location: The Ranch in Olam Haba
23,709 posts, read 30,578,252 times
Reputation: 9985
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milky Way Resident View Post
...

Like I told Selen beforehand, they don’t want to accept Israel because it’s part of the holy land. The Dome of the Rock is in Jerusalem. Muslims view it as one of their most sacred sites, while Jews claim it as the location of the second temple of Solomon. That’s the main reason why a large number of Muslim countries boycott Israel.
No, they don't want to recognize Israel because it's run by Jews. If the leadership were Arabs (or Muslims), they would not care. It's called Arabization of the regions that include the Middle East and North Africa.
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Old 11-12-2017, 10:21 PM
 
5,428 posts, read 3,438,666 times
Reputation: 5030
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
It's not a aid package for Israel. It's a debit card that Israel must use 100% of it in the US to purchase US armaments. It's a Treaty that lists certain trade offs between Israel, Egypt, Jordan and the US. The US is not being generous, it's doing so because they want something out if it. Each time there has been a flair up between the three nations, the US has thrown some cash at it to bring the fire down to embers that don't go out.
She was being sarcastic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
No, they don't want to recognize Israel because it's run by Jews. If the leadership were Arabs (or Muslims), they would not care. It's called Arabization of the regions that include the Middle East and North Africa.
That’s one way to put it. They basically want to run the holy land. Jews can live there as long as they submit to a Muslim state.
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