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Old 02-10-2018, 05:30 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 9,971,568 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dunno what to put here View Post
Personally, I think the UK would be better off primarily focusing on its near neighbours, since we have the closest economic ties to them, and it makes sense from a geographic point of view.. but I suppose that's not going to happen, however ridiculous I think it is.

I wouldn't want to be in a union with the United States - and to be honest I don't think most people here would. We view Canada, New Zealand and Australia much more favourably than the US. I don't trust that country either.
I'm not advocating shutting out our closest neighbours and trading partners. Europe will always be the UK's largest trading partner. The U.S for Canada and someone can correct me if i'm wrong but China for Australia.. I'm simply advocating closer ties by making it easier for people to move about for work and study purposes. We are already pretty closely linked in intelligence and military unions.

In the case of the U.S - it has become much more protectionist under Trump, so Canada is looking to more closely align itself more with countries that share a more similar outlook in terms of global trade and global affairs in general. Brexit from what I know is happening so this may be exactly the perfect time for all four countries to strengthen the anglosphere alliance.
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Old 02-10-2018, 05:31 PM
 
1,781 posts, read 554,901 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dunno what to put here View Post
Personally, I think the UK would be better off primarily focusing on its near neighbours, since we have the closest economic ties to them, and it makes sense from a geographic point of view.. but I suppose that's not going to happen, however ridiculous I think it is.

I wouldn't want to be in a union with the United States - and to be honest I don't think most people here would. We view Canada, New Zealand and Australia much more favourably than the US. I don't trust that country either.
What's wrong with being in a union with the US? You're already in NATO. It's easy to view the other three countries more favorably then the US, when they are much smaller and therefore leave a smaller footprint.
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Old 02-10-2018, 05:34 PM
 
1,781 posts, read 554,901 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
I'm not advocating shutting out our closest neighbours and trading partners. Europe will always be the UK's largest trading partner. The U.S for Canada and someone can correct me if i'm wrong but China for Australia.. I'm simply advocating closer ties by making it easier for people to move about for work and study purposes. We are already pretty closely linked in intelligence and military unions.

In the case of the U.S - it has become much more protectionist under Trump so Canada is looking to align itself more with countries that share a more similar outlook in terms of global trade and global affairs in general. Brexit from what I know is happening so this may be the perfect time to strengthen the alliance.
China is both Australia and the US largest trading partner. There's nothing wrong with diversifying trade and Canada should expand it's horizon. Trump is a temporary nuisance.
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Old 02-10-2018, 05:35 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 9,971,568 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milky Way Resident View Post
What's wrong with being in a union with the US? You're already in NATO. It's easy to view the other three countries more favorably then the US, when they are much smaller and therefore leave a smaller footprint.
Ask Canada how it feels about NAFTA talks and pretty punishing tariffs the U.S is leveling against it across multiple industries. It has gotten pretty bad actually and all has the Trump admins name on it. The U.S is increasingly looking inward and becoming more and more protectionist. It has done quite a strong reversal of trade policy under Trump. This simply can't be dismissed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Milky Way Resident View Post
China is both Australia and the US largest trading partner. There's nothing wrong with diversifying trade and Canada should expand it's horizon. Trump is a temporary nuisance.
Canada is expanding its trade horizons including with your own country under TPP, we just signed a free trade agreement with Europe (CETA) and that will be duplicated with the UK post Brexit, plus we are in talks with China.. That said, you are making a big assumption that Trump is a temporary nuisance. There is absolutely no guarantee that he won't win 2020 and no guarantees beyond that another Trump copy won't replace him. You'd have to be living in a cocoon not to recognize the U.S is becoming more and more protectionist and inward looking.
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Old 02-10-2018, 05:43 PM
 
1,781 posts, read 554,901 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Sure the UK is the larger economy and military power but I don't really see how that would extraordinarily impact the overall relationship and the imbalance isn't nearly as great as with the U.S. The U.S economy is 90X the size of NZ, 15X the size of Australia, 12X the size of Canada and 7.5 times the size of the UK. That to me is a real imbalance. These 4 countries have similar values and I see the UK as a pretty stable and consistent military power. GDP per capita among the 4 is strong and fairly even handed so I'm not really seeing how the UK being the 'powerhouse' would impact anything tbh. Per cap GDP of the UK is actually less than Australia and Canada. Australia and Canada have combined GDP greater than the UK at 2.7 Trillion USD to 2.5 Trillion with less people so i'm not seeing the imbalance the way you are.

It isn't just size of the economy either, Australia and Canada are incredibly resource rich so I think that would be a good counterbalance to the UK being really not that significantly a larger economy.

New Zealand may feel a totally outgunned simply because it is quite a bit smaller in GDP and population than the 'big' 3 but again, 4 countries with pretty similar values and systems. It would be great.
I view it differently. The US would act as a counterbalance to the UK, while the UK would do the reverse.
It's good that you mention New Zealand as they often get forgotten. If they can put up with being surrounded by two giants and a behemoth then there's no reason the other three should feel intimidated from a colossus.

See we Canucks, Aussies and Brits to a certain extent, always talk about how our cultures get dwarfed by America's but we do that to New Zealand all the time. I can't tell you how many times I've run into conversations where Kiwis were described as an afterthought.

My first reaction to hearing about CANZUK was "Great, but where's the US".
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Old 02-10-2018, 05:52 PM
 
1,781 posts, read 554,901 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Ask Canada how it feels about NAFTA talks and pretty punishing tariffs the U.S is leveling against it across multiple industries. It has gotten pretty bad actually and all has the Trump admins name on it. The U.S is increasingly looking inward and becoming more and more protectionist. It has done quite a strong reversal of trade policy under Trump. This simply can't be dismissed.



Canada is expanding its trade horizons including with your own country under TPP, we just signed a free trade agreement with Europe (CETA) and that will be duplicated with the UK post Brexit, plus we are in talks with China.. That said, you are making a big assumption that Trump is a temporary nuisance. There is absolutely no guarantee that he won't win 2020 and no guarantees beyond that another Trump copy won't replace him. You'd have to be living in a cocoon not to recognize the U.S is becoming more and more protectionist and inward looking.
I'm Canadian.

Trump may win in 2020, but he'll be out by about 2024. Many countries are becoming more protective these days.

There's also no guarantee that any country won't elect someone like Trump. There's Pauline Hanson in Australia with her One Nation. France has LePen and the FN.

People make the mistake in assuming someone like Trump could only happen in the US, but that's faulty logic. There are plenty of politicians who are waiting for the right opportunity and playing around with peoples fear of globalization.
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Old 02-10-2018, 05:53 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 9,971,568 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milky Way Resident View Post
I view it differently. The US would act as a counterbalance to the UK, while the UK would do the reverse.
It's good that you mention New Zealand as they often get forgotten. If they can put up with being surrounded by two giants and a behemoth then there's no reason the other three should feel intimidated from a colossus.

See we Canucks, Aussies and Brits to a certain extent, always talk about how our cultures get dwarfed by America's but we do that to New Zealand all the time. I can't tell you how many times I've run into conversations where Kiwis were described as an afterthought.

My first reaction to hearing about CANZUK was "Great, but where's the US".
I don't know why we would need a 'counterbalance' to the UK.. I still don't get that. I'd agree with your sentiment regarding NZ and that is why I mentioned it. That said, that is something you'd have to ask New Zealanders. I think I explained my stance on the Trump administration in quite detail. It isn't easy either because half of the U.S is more alike with my country than any other country in the world, but the other half is such a world apart and unfortunately, that half is what put Trump in his place and i'm not convinced of the temporary nature of that administration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Milky Way Resident View Post
I'm Canadian.
.
Fair enough though I think you may find any thought right now of us relying on the U.S any more than we do is just not a tenable situation with most of us. As for China being the largest trade partner of the U.S - this is true by a pretty small margin over Canada but the trade balance the U.S has with China is very imbalanced favouring China. Canada is the U.S' largest export market.

You are also living in Melbourne right now? I don't know how long you've been gone or if you are keeping up with what is happening but the Trump admin is doing a number on CAD/U.S relations right now. Have you noticed lol???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Milky Way Resident View Post

Trump may win in 2020, but he'll be out by about 2024. Many countries are becoming more protective these days.

There's also no guarantee that any country won't elect someone like Trump. There's Pauline Hanson in Australia with her One Nation. France has LePen and the FN.

People make the mistake in assuming someone like Trump could only happen in the US, but that's faulty logic. There are plenty of politicians who are waiting for the right opportunity and playing around with peoples fear of globalization.
Oh i'm not denying a Trump like leader couldn't happen in other countries including the 4 we are discussing, I just think it is FAR less likely. Trump isn't a candidate anymore either - he is in the drivers seat and yes, that does change the calculus.
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Old 02-10-2018, 07:12 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
10,443 posts, read 7,283,469 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milky Way Resident View Post
What's wrong with being in a union with the US? You're already in NATO. It's easy to view the other three countries more favorably then the US, when they are much smaller and therefore leave a smaller footprint.
The part I mentioned earlier....The US will NOT align it's foreign policy with other countries, which is part of the mandate set out by CANZUK.

Canada's foreign policy differs in some major aspects than the US.

Also as said, the US is just too big to allow free movement of people to these other countries. The chance of being overwhelmed is greater.
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Old 02-10-2018, 07:28 PM
 
Location: Vancouver, BC
9,410 posts, read 10,484,100 times
Reputation: 3866
I honestly don't think the US would want to be part of CANZUK even if they were invited to join at least in its current form. I can't see the US opening their borders to any other country to be honest unless they were to become a part of the US which is a non starter for pretty much any other country.
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Old 02-10-2018, 07:51 PM
 
Location: San Diego, California Republic
16,012 posts, read 20,821,632 times
Reputation: 8194
Quote:
Originally Posted by dunno what to put here View Post

I wouldn't want to be in a union with the United States - and to be honest I don't think most people here would. We view Canada, New Zealand and Australia much more favourably than the US. I don't trust that country either.
And the US is a mess right now. Disunity is the highest it's been since the 1860's. We'd be lucky to remain united, nevermind a union with any other countries.
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